In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>>Joe Szalai works at a university in Ontario.

<Sznip>
>
>By the way, Sam, I work at the University of Waterloo.  There is no such
>animal as the "university of Ontario".  However, both Waterloo and
Ontario
>end in an "o", so I can understand your confusion.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>
Go back and read my original post again. To ease the burden on you, I have
copied the pertinent line from your last post. It says you work at a
university IN Ontario. It does not say that you work at the university OF
Ontario. Do they have a remedial reading course at UWaterloo?
Sam Stowe


North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

In article >, Zsargo Janos
> writes:

>
>Think about this, Sam. Assume that the northern neighbour of the US would
be
>Russia (with Stalin, Gulag, etc) and not Canada, the southern, let's say
>the Third Reich (with SS, Hitler, etc) and for being a little bit mean,
>instead of the Atlantic the US would have common border with Mao Ce
Tung's
>China. Do you think the abortus and those ...-ist problems would be the
most
>important issues of the american policy-makers? You know Sam it is easy
to
>blame somebody thousand of miles away from the trouble. However one can
ask
>why are those problems are far away from the US. This would be a good
>question
>but I don't think the reason is the cultural difference.


It is cultural difference, Janos. Think about it -- the troublesome
neighbors you mention are troublesome precisely because they think they've
found "THE" answer and want to impose it on the neighbors. If nothing
else, the ideologies these cultures have forged make a convenient pretext
for simply snatching land from the guy next door. In great measure, much
of the latter half of the 20th Century for America has been a slow,
painful withdrawal from such notions of justifying geopolitical
expansionism through ideology. American politics incorporates ideology in
much less degree than European politics do. In fact, ideology is an
outright handicap in American politics. Look at what happened to the
Democratic Party once leftist activists seized control of it following
George McGovern's run for the presidency in 1972. Compare that with what
the Republican Party is beginning to undergo as the Christian Coalition
moves into control of it. It's the same limiting process. It turns most of
the electorate off.
>
>>record! And having learned from their mistakes, the wealthier,
supposedly
>>more culturally advanced western Europeans showed real fortitude and
>>courage in halting Serb aggression in Bosnia on their own. I guess it
>
>Sam, can you imagine what would have happened if for example german
soldiers
>had appeared on the Balkan to halt the Serb aggression?

What would have happened if French and British soldiers had shown up in
enough numbers and with rules of engagement that made it clear that the
Serbs would pay an overwhelming cost for continuing the genocide? The
Germans aren't the only nation in Europe with sufficient resources to
participate in such peacekeeping missions.

>
>>would be a bit impolite to point out that western European blather about
>>human rights and preventing genocide inevitably only becomes a concrete
>>reality when it's vouchsafed by American lives, as it is currently in
>>Bosnia and was in Somalia.
>
>First, Somalia is a wrong example. As far as I know it was a failure and
>the US action did not solve anything. I think it caused more harm to the
>reputation of the US than good. Beside the Europians have not got the
>military powers to do such kind of mission.
>Second, I would be more cautious with Bosnia. You know I am not so sure
>that the last gunshot of that war has been fired and it is easier to
>enter the shit than to leave!


Amen to that last sentence, little brother! The point is, however, that we
made the commitment when Europe wouldn't. Somalia proves what our military
planners are talking about when they say they don't want to undertake such
missions unless we have clear-cut, attainable goals and well-planned
strategies for getting in and getting out. And despite what happened in
Mogadishu with General Aidid, American troops managed to pacify large
portions of the countryside and get the starving populace fed. From a
humanitarian standpoint, it wasn't quite the fiasco you posit. Contrast
the American involvement in Somalia with what the French have done in
Rwanda. They got caught red-handed shipping weapons and ammunition to the
Hutu militants who set off the latest round of mass killings. They were
content to provide the means for killing hundreds of thousands of people
just so they could maintain some kind of influence in the region.
>
>>I still don't understand why you're wasting your time at an American
>>university. A guy with your exquisite sensibilities ought to be haunting
>>some Left Bank cafe, smoking Gauloises and talking earnestly about the
>>philosophy of Fu'ko' Mihai. Just think -- France's gain would be our
loss.
>>Still, your departure from the University of South Carolina would free
up
>>a graduate post for some undeserving American untermensch. If not
France,
>>how about at least Canada. Joe Szalai works at a university in Ontario.
>>I'm sure he'd be willing to mail you an admission application.
>>
>>Question for our Hungarian-American brethren: Are all Hungarian college
>>students studying in American universities as obtuse and arrogant as
>>Zoltan or is he an aberration? From what I can gather, he's learned
>>nothing from living in the U.S.
>
>Reading these line of yours one can have some basic ideas why so many
>people think the americans are ignorant 'taho'-s.
>
>J.Zs

Americans are taho'sok only in the degree that they don't allow themselves
to be seduced en masse by bad ideas. Too bad you didn't learn anything
yourself during your sojourn here. So much arrogance on your part and so
little foundation of accomplishment for it to rest on. And quite
un-Hungarian, I might add.
Sam Stowe

North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

In article >, _JELIKO
> writes:

>I suggest that when talking about culture, whatever we put into the
basket,
>we should discuss the differences without assigning superiority or
>inferiority to anybodys culture.
>
>Regards,Jeliko.

Yes, yes, yes. Different -- yes. Superior or inferior -- no. Thank you,
Jeliko. It bothers me just as much to see a fellow American pop off about
how "superior" American culture is as it does to hear Europeans talk about
how "inferior" it is. Cultures can be different, even wildly conflicting.
Yet we can still appreciate them for what they are. You are a welcome
voice of common sense.
Sam Stowe

North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

In article >,
 says...

>At 10:53 PM 9/14/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:
>>If the assets of Ikarus are bought without the
>>name, it would be an indication that the buyer was interested in buying
>>only the tangible assets and the market share, while perhaps intending
>>to shut down the production line itself.

>        I forgot to mention one more thing. Is there any guarantee that the
>buyer after a while will not shut down the operation even if the name
>Ikarusz remains? For example, if no one wants to buy these Ikarusz buses,
>and the new owner realizes that he can't make a go of it! I think name or
>no name you can shut down a plant simply because it is not profitable, in
>fact, it is a losing proposition.

The only reason for a previously going concern to shut down as a losing
proposition is mismanagement.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

Eva B At 12:52 PM 9/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 08:30 PM 9/18/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:
>
<snip>

(...) . But there is one big difference
>between those of us who came here forty years ago: whether we liked it or
>not, we had nowhere to go. Today's disenchanted graduate students have a
>choice: they can return to Hungary.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Extremely well put Eva!  I personally prefer the philosophy "when in Rome,
do and live as the Romans do and live".  And in the case of this young
visitor to the US, the operative word I believe is "Visitor" =  Guest?  Why
then is he behaving like an ungracious intruder?  Unfortunately, in my
experience, when he eventually returns to his home he will continue this
"habit" of country/culture bashing - only the target will be changed to
become Hungary in the attempts at making himself look "intelligent" and
"worldly" in the eyes of his countrymen.

Regards,
Aniko

On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

> Tell me, Eva, dear, what can I do about the general impression here?
> The general impression here is the impression made forcefully by the
> most powerful participiants. (The powerful, who can threaten by
>                              ----------------------------------
> making me to lose my job or by my expulsion from the United States.)
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> And this kind of "general impression" is impressed on us by a kind of
> very typical entellectuel terror. Tell me Eva, what is my business
> in this general impression stuff at all? I was publicly despised by
> Sam, as a "college student". Now, how on the Earth could a "college
> student" make any kind of general impression in this very respectful
> international (not only HUNGARYan) discussion list?
>                                                           Sz. Zoli
>
  You don't need any help in making you look like a fool,  you are
  doing an exellent job  of it yourself.  The above qote (and it is
  what you wrote)  shows to everyone  what a jerk you are, you have
  not learned the first thing about this wonderful country of ours,
  the United  States of  America. You just seem  to have  a problem
  understanding things.  Do you ever  think for yourself?  I wonder
  why you have the  need to quote others  all the time?  I tell you
  why.Because you have nothing original to say.You are embarrassing
  even those you  pretend to support:  the religious bigots and the
  rabid right-wingers.
  This is all the time I am willing to waste on this subject.
                                                             Amos

At 09:53 PM 9/19/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>Go back and read my original post again. To ease the burden on you, I have
>copied the pertinent line from your last post. It says you work at a
>university IN Ontario. It does not say that you work at the university OF
>Ontario. Do they have a remedial reading course at UWaterloo?

This is so embarrassing.  Sam, of course, is right.

And no, remedial reading courses are not offered at Waterloo.  That must be
an exclusively American programme, for obvious reasons.

Joe Szalai

>We were like this forty years ago and I am
>sure that we were equally insufferable. But there is one big difference
>between those of us who came here forty years ago: whether we liked it or
>not, we had nowhere to go. Today's disenchanted graduate students have a
>choice: they can return to Hungary.
>
>        Eva Balogh

How well stated. One usually puts down something one does not quite understand.

A. Mogyorosy

Forty years ago...in Canada...about 1956...

PART ONE

Peter I. Hidas

Canada and the Hungarian Revolution
of 1956
A Canadian Chronicle
23 October-4 November 19561

        In writing about the reaction of Canada to the Hungarian revolution of
1956 one
does not need to write revisionist history; the topic remains unexplored to
date. The
role Canada played in  the history of the Suez affair so thoroughly
overshadowed
other events at the time, that the story of Canadian-Hungarian relations
during the
revolution has not yet found its way into the annals of Canada.

        Professor N. DreiszigerUs book on the Hungarian-Canadians (1982)2
devoted
only five pages to the decade of the 1950s probably due to the lack of
accessible
archival resources at the time of publication. James EayrsU excellent analysis
of the
period was written in the late 1950s3  without access to memoirs and the
archives of
External Affairs. The memoirs and other published writings of L.B.Pearson,
J.W.Pickersgill and L.St Laurent4  speak little about the Hungarian
revolution.  A
different approach can be observed in the New Delhi reports  of Escott Reid,
one of
CanadaUs senior diplomats, who took up the cause of the Magyars in 1956.5
The
more recent publication, the Breaking Ground:  The 1956 Hungarian Refugee
Movement to Canada 6  contains no new archival material, although the relevant
papers in the National Archives of Canada have been available since the late
1980s.

        The recent accessibility of archival material concerning Canadian
foreign and
immigration policies in the mid-1950s now makes possible the examination of
the
Canadian position on the Hungarian revolution of 1956. External Affairs albeit
preoccupied with the Suez crisis, was forced to pay some attention to events
in
Hungary because of public pressure. The interruption of the political RthawS
that started
with the death of Stalin in 1953 and threatened the interest of the wheat
growers of
Canada, however, forced the Canadian government to deal with events in
Hungary.
L.B. Pearson, Canada's Secretary of State for External Affairs, opposed the
American-
led anti-Soviet propaganda campaign. He preferred a hands-off policy regarding
Hungary in 1956. He did not want to provoke the Soviets and cause a rupture in

Commonweal relations. Many third-world commonwealth nations equated the Suez
affair with the Hungarian problem. When some Canadian diplomats such as Escott
Reid and Jules Lger, who were sympathetic to the plight of the Hungarians,
proposed
negotiations for mutual troop withdrawals between NATO and the Soviet Union,
they
were unable to make an impact on the cabinet.

        In March 1944 the Germans occupied Hungary. A year later they were
expelled
and their place was taken by the Red Army. Within two years the liberators put
their
agents and local communists in charge of the government in Budapest. Mtys
Rkosi, the veteran Hungarian communist, established a totalitarian satellite
state
based on the Soviet model. The regime maintained itself with the support of a
powerful
secret police organization and the army of the U.S.S.R. In 1953 the Cold War
began to
RthawS and the East European satellites of the Soviet Union were allowed to
take a
new Rcourse." In Hungary a new prime minister, Imre Nagy, introduced reforms
and
moderated the oppressive features of the regime. Rkosi, however, remained at
the
helm of the communist party, the governing institution of Hungary. Taking
advantage of
the post-Stalin power-struggle in the Kremlin, Rkosi managed to remove Nagy.
He
then planned to arrest his followers in the summer of 1956. By now Khruschev
had
began to consolidate his leadership in Moscow. He ordered the removal and
replacement of Rkosi in Hungary,  not by Imre Nagy, but by another Muscovite,
Ern

I would like to dedicate my essay to those who gave their lives for freedom.

   DAY ONE


Peter I. Hidas

Canada and the Hungarian Revolution
of 1956
A Canadian Chronicle
23 October-4 November 1956 (1)

        In writing about the reaction of Canada to the Hungarian revolution
of 1956 one
does not need to write revisionist history; the topic remains unexplored to
date. The
role Canada played in  the history of the Suez affair so thoroughly
overshadowed
other events at the time, that the story of Canadian-Hungarian relations
during the
revolution has not yet found its way into the annals of Canada.

        Professor N. Dreisziger's book on the Hungarian-Canadians (1982)
(2)   devoted
only five pages to the decade of the 1950s probably due to the lack of
accessible
archival resources at the time of publication. James Eayrs' excellent
analysis of the
period was written in the late 1950s(3)  without access to memoirs and the
archives of
External Affairs. The memoirs and other published writings of L.B.Pearson,
J.W.Pickersgill and L.St Laurent (4)  speak little about the Hungarian
revolution.  A
different approach can be observed in the New Delhi reports  of Escott
Reid, one of
Canada's senior diplomats, who took up the cause of the Magyars in 1956.(5)
The
more recent publication, the Breaking Ground:  The 1956 Hungarian Refugee
Movement to Canada (6)  contains no new archival material, although the
relevant
papers in the National Archives of Canada have been available since the
late 1980s.

        The recent accessibility of archival material concerning Canadian
foreign and
immigration policies in the mid-1950s now makes possible the examination of the
Canadian position on the Hungarian revolution of 1956. External Affairs albeit
preoccupied with the Suez crisis, was forced to pay some attention to events in
Hungary because of public pressure. The interruption of the political
"thaw" that started
with the death of Stalin in 1953 and threatened the interest of the wheat
growers of
Canada, however, forced the Canadian government to deal with events in Hungary.
L.B. Pearson, Canada's Secretary of State for External Affairs, opposed the
American-
led anti-Soviet propaganda campaign. He preferred a hands-off policy regarding
Hungary in 1956. He did not want to provoke the Soviets and cause a rupture in
Commonweal relations. Many third-world commonwealth nations equated the Suez
affair with the Hungarian problem. When some Canadian diplomats such as Escott
Reid and Jules Leger, who were sympathetic to the plight of the Hungarians,
proposed
negotiations for mutual troop withdrawals between NATO and the Soviet
Union, they
were unable to make an impact on the cabinet.

        In March 1944 the Germans occupied Hungary. A year later they were
expelled
and their place was taken by the Red Army. Within two years the liberators
put their
agents and local communists in charge of the government in Budapest. Matyas
Rakosi, the veteran Hungarian communist, established a totalitarian
satellite state
based on the Soviet model. The regime maintained itself with the support of
a powerful
secret police organization and the army of the U.S.S.R. In 1953 the Cold
War began to
"thaw" and the East European satellites of the Soviet Union were allowed to
take a
new "course." In Hungary a new prime minister, Imre Nagy, introduced
reforms and
moderated the oppressive features of the regime. Rakosi, however, remained
at the
helm of the communist party, the governing institution of Hungary. Taking
advantage of
the post-Stalin power-struggle in the Kremlin, Rakosi managed to remove
Nagy. He
then planned to arrest his followers in the summer of 1956. By now
Khruschev had
began to consolidate his leadership in Moscow. He ordered the removal and
replacement of Rakosi in Hungary,  not by Imre Nagy, but by another
Muscovite, Erno
Gero. This was a serious political mistake. Hungarian intellectuals who had
kept the
public in turmoil since 1953 would not embrace the new leader. The weak
hand of the
Kremlin, the temporary paralysis of the State Security Police in Hungary
and the
events in Poland encouraged and emboldened students, writers, poets,
journalists
and professors, to challenge the regime day-by-day. Once the working class
joined
their movement this challenge turned into a revolution. That happened on 23
October
1956.

        The Canadian government watched the events in Hungary with the help
of the
British embassy in Budapest. Canada had not maintained diplomatic relations
with
Hungary since the 1941 declaration of war on Canada by the Hungarian
government.
After the Second World War, Canada participated in the drafting of  the
Hungarian
peace treaty of 1947. During the discussions in Paris the Canadian
delegation tried to
moderate some of the harsher terms the Great Powers imposed on Hungary but with
meager results. During the early Cold War days Canada looked upon Hungary
as one
of the satellites of Russia. All Hungarian attempts to revive the pre-World
War Two
commercial contacts failed. The show-trial of Cardinal Mindszenty
particularly angered
the Canadian Catholics and  the Canadian-Hungarians. Nevertheless, Canadian
diplomats in Prague, Moscow, Belgrade and Warsaw watched events as they
unfolded
in Hungary. It was not a coincidence that one of them arrived at Budapest
on the eve of
the revolution.





Tuesday, 23 October 1956.

Party Secretary Gero and Janos Kadar,
present puppet premier of Hungary, returned
from talks with Tito to find Budapest the
scene of active demonstrations by students,
workers and soldiers. Gero in a radio
address rejected student demands for
greater national independence.
Demonstrators at radio station and army
officials who tried to intervene  fired on by
Security Police (AVH). Soldiers provided
arms and ammunition to the rebels and
fighting spread through the city.
Calendar of Events in Hungary prepared by
the staff of the Department of External Affairs
for use in connection with the Special Session
of the Canadian House of Commons:
November 26, 1956. (7 )

        "On Tuesday, October 23, my wife and I, in our car, crossed the
Hungarian
border just beyond Subotica," reported A.F. Hart, Charge d'Affaires at the
Canadian
Embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia, to Lester B. Pearson, the Secretary of
State for
External Affairs. "It was an afternoon of bright, warm sunshine and the
golden brown
tints of autumn gave the countryside a peaceful, tranquil appearance....By
the time we
entered Budapest...darkness descended...in the centre we ran into complete
confusion: large bodies of students were marching in chaotic fashion here,
there and
everywhere." (8)  The charge stayed until October 26. By then he understood the
surprising events that took place in Hungary.

        Hart was astonished that an uprising of large proportions could
take place in a
Communist-controlled state under Soviet occupation. This is surprising
considering
events in Poland days earlier. The diplomat characterized the revolution as
an anti-
Communist, an anti-Soviet and  a nationalist insurrection. Hart considered
the rebels
realistic because  they did not advocate the immediate eradication of
Communism,
but accepted communists like Imre Nagy and Janos Kadar as transitional
leaders.  The
diplomat correctly predicted that the freedom fighters  would soon seek to
go further
and discard all traces of Communism.

        One can only speculate how this report could have influenced the
attitude of the
Canadian government if it would have arrived before it actually did, on
October 30.



1This project was made possible by financial assistance from
Multiculturalism and
Citizenship Canada and the Research Institute for the Study of the Hungarian
Revolution of 1956, Budapest.

2 N.F. Dreisziger, et.al.  Struggle and Hope; The Hungarian-Canadian
Experience
(Toronto: McClelland and Stewart, 1982.)

3James Eayrs,. Canada in World Affairs, October 1955 to June 1957
(Toronto: Oxford
University Press, 1959.).

4J.W. Pickersgill, My Years with Louis St Laurent: A Political Memoir
(Toronto:
University of Toronto Press, 1975.); J.W.Pickersgill, Seeing Canada Whole; A
Memoir  (Markham, Ontario: Fitzhenry &  Whiteside, 1994.); Lester B.
Pearson, Mike:
The Memoirs of the Rt. Hon. Lester B. Pearson. Vol.2 1948-1957.  Ed. John A.
Munro and Alex. I. Inglis. (Toronto and Buffalo: University of Toronto
Press, 1973.);
Dale C. Thompson, Louis St Laurent: Canadian  (Toronto: Macmillan of Canada,
1967.).

5Escott M. Reid, Hungary and Suez, 1956: a View from New Delh i  (Oakville:
Mosaic
Press, 1987,  126.).

6(Toronto: York Lanes Press, Inc., 1993.).

7National Archives Canada, NAC [cited hereafter as NAC], Privy Council, RG
2, [cited
hereafter as  RG 2], 90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b).

8"The Red Star Falls from Hungarian Skies," 1 November 1956, National
Archives of
Canada (cited hereafter as NAC), Department of External Affairs RG 25 [cited
hereafter as RG 25], 86-87/360, Box 32, 8619-40, part 3: 1 November 1956 to 7
November 1956;  An earlier sojourner's report from Budapest reached Ottawa on
October 30, but the Canadian charge who completed his trip on October 17 could
only say "...that the outbreak that occurred a few days later was not
expected."
(Charge d'Affaires a.i., Canadian Legation, Prague to the Secretary of
State for
External Affairs, 30 October 1956,  NAC, RG 25, 84/85/150, Box 111, File
8619/40,
part 2: from January 2, 1952, to October 31, 1956).



Peter I. Hidas
Montreal

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>One single question made Sam to sing a long and ugly little song
>about Europe. Is this really the American culture? I doubt it.
>It seems more like to be just another noisy Yankee with his low
>quality, high level over-self-esteemed bullie-boy identity.
>How characteristic...!!

You can call me MISTER Taho's, bucko! Do any of our American readers
remember an on-going skit on Saturday Night Live back in the 1980's about
the little German intellectual who hosted a postmodern culture show called
"Sprockets"? That's what Zoltan's posts are starting to sound like: "Now
is the time on bit.listserv.hungary when we dance..."

By the way, bubba, you show an abysmal and disturbing ignorance of
American culture. I thought college was supposed to educate people, even
when you're reduced to studying at an American university.

>
>The real issue is that Clinton needs a military victory before
>the election. If the military technique kills, well, it is the
>problem of another country. U.S servicemen is not going to be
>killed.
>                                                       (Sz. Z)

Yes, we need to invade someone else prior to the first Tuesday in
November. That'll get Clinton votes. Worked for George Bush, didn't it?
Screw Medicare reform. We wanna nuke Vanuatu.
Sam Stowe

North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

In article >, Lajos MONOKI
> writes:

>Sometimes (reading this "conversation") I feel sorry being Hungarian. I
>don't know which culture is superior (I doubt there is a *superior*), but
I
>think Zoltan would better choose a university in Europe (in Tirana, for
>example :-) - but at least he is away from Hungary for a while. (it's
:-),
>too)

Fear not, Lajos! Even us ignorant American taho'sok would never mistake
Zoltan for a Hungarian. A Russian, yes. A Romanian, certainly. A
Hungarian, never.
Sam Stowe

North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

This is addressed to the WASINGTON Metro are Hungarians:

I was asked by the Hungarian Scouts of Washington to forward the following
request.

They are looking for trained Scouts leaders (off all types) who speak
Hungarian for both Girl & Boy Scouts [all levels].

If you fit this criteria and would be willing to serve 1x per week
at the scouts PLEASE forward your e-mail address to me.

If you know of anyone who meets these criteria, Please do let them know.
Thank you
Peter Soltesz
for the Hungarian Scouts of Washington (DC - Metro)

In article >, Tony and Celia
Becker > writes:

>Come on Sam, you can't be starting to sound like me. You have your own=
> wonderful reputation as the ultimate misogynist curmudgeon to uphold.
Take=
> two aspirin, mix a tom collins--heavy on the lemon--and try again.
There,=
> there, now.  Don't worry, I'll forget I read this all--eventually. :-)
>
>Cecilia

Cecilia, I could never sound like you. My software won't allow me to post
such long statements. By the way, I believe you when you say you'll forget
you read all this. Boy, do I believe you.
Sam Stowe

North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Actually, I claimed, that culturally challenged guys, as Sam,
>can never understand cultural features. It is not my fault,
>that Sam is an American.

Mild laugh. Once again, you're a hypocrite. If you don't like the place,
don't stay here. Go find your muse in Paris.

>
>Sam claimed, that Martin Heidegger, the German giant of the
>philosophy of this Century is simply a "redneck" (whatever
>does it mean). Sam accused the French entellectuels with
>contributing to the horrible crimes of Pol Pot's communists.
>He also linked Simone Weil with Ferenc Szalasi, which is a
>laugh.

It's "intellectuals" not "entellecuels". The intellectual links between
the Khmer Rouge and French postmodernism have been examined in detail by
academic observers for well over a decade now. Heidegger remained a
Nazi-loving peasant to his dying day, despite having one of the most
brilliant minds of this century. And I linked you with Szalasi, not Weil.
I asked you to provide us with examples of this "third way" you keep
blathering about and suggested that it would probably boil down to Szalasi
gussied up in the rhetoric of French poststructuralism. And you, sir, are
a pathetic liar, which is why I'm always careful to repost your actual
statements with my comments.
Sam Stowe

North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

>I just love America!!
>Andy is in the attack, too  ;-)                                      (Sz.Z.)
>
>> I am not a Yanke,but a canadian.I do not love Americans,but I still holds
>> them above a lot of other nations,who can thank the Yanks,for lots of there
>> existence and bussiness and technologie and oil and a secure sleep at night.
>> The hatred what this person has against America would justify his expulsion.
>> Harsh words?Maybe,but to bite the hand wich feeds you is worst.
>> Andy.
>
>I am not in the attack,but it is shamefull to be a guest in a country and
than down grade it.How would you like if an american student in Hungary
would write stuff like you do?
Andy.

At 11:08 PM 9/19/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>ESB:
>> You may not find the exact quote but the general impression remains.
>> And they find that hard to understand.
>
>Dear Eva, you at least tried to find the quotes. But never found
>anything. Funny, huhh?

        Dear Zoli, where on earth did you get the idea that I was spending
precious hours looking for quotations from you. I was speaking in general
terms. You and others like you keep saying the most God-awful things about
the United States and Americans in general but, of course, you never say it
outright: "I hate this place and I look down on Americans. I am and
Europeans in general are superior to Americans." In so many words we will
never find quotes from you but that is what you mean.

>You just don't have it, and you keep
>accusing me by slanderous lies. Why? Why would you involve yourself
>in a such a low game? Tell me, please.

        I have the feeling that you have serious problems with
self-perception. There are hundreds of people who read your letters, many of
which conveyed the idea of European superiority, but for some strange reason
you call people who bring this to the attention of others liars.

>Eva, you invented for us your notion of "general impression". The
>fact of the matter is that you and your friends created this general
>impression, nobody else. I don't even have the power to do so.

        The notion of "general impression" doesn't need to be invented. We
all know what it means.

>Just look Sam, how desperate he is. I quoted Simone Weil in the hope
>that we may ease the tension generated by his slanderous lies against
>me, and what did he answer? Tell me Eva, what did he answer? He ans-
>wered by associating Ferenc Szalasi, the infamous Hungarian Nyilas-
>Part leader and wartime criminal with Simone. Does it make any sense
>to you, Eva? What is your "general impression" about this kind of
>behavior?

        I haven't read all the correspondence concerning Simone Weil and
therefore I don't know what Sam said to you concerning Simone Weil and
Szalasi. However, I am going to tell you one thing right at the beginning:
Sam Stowe is a very smart man and normally he doesn't say stupid things. He
may say certain things with a good dose of American humor and straight
forwardness alien to Hungarian culture, a characteristic which Gyula Horn in
his autobiography called "nyers," but he normally hits the nail on the head.


>Tell me, Eva, dear, what can I do about the general impression here?

        Unfortunately, this is a rhetorical question on your part and you
have no intention of doing anything about it. However, here are some ideas.
Stop the "dear" business as the first step. Second, it would help if you
concentrated on your English. Perhaps your problems expressing yourself in
English on a certain level adds to the generally negative impression. Third,
try to see the world less black and white. And fourth, try to appreciate the
American reality around you. Otherwise you will go back to Hungary without
the slightest benefit of a fairly longish foreign stay. But, of course, it
is possible that Amos is right: you are just a jerk.

>The general impression here is the impression made forcefully by the
>most powerful participiants. (The powerful, who can threaten by
>making me to lose my job or by my expulsion from the United States.)

        No one threatened you with expulsion. Not even "a most powerful
participants" will impress the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization with
tales of your hatred of the United States. It is not a crime.

>And this kind of "general impression" is impressed on us by a kind of
>very typical entellectuel terror.

        The word "entellectuel" doen't exist in English. And what on earth
are you talking about when you invoke the word "terror."

>I was publicly despised by
>Sam, as a "college student".

        One of your problems that you don't listen. Jeliko only yesterday
tried to explain that in the United States we don't fall on our faces just
because someone is a professor or anything else for that matter. And, may I
remind you, your English stands in your way again. Your sentence above is
not really English. And let me add another thing: since when one is
humiliated (despised, if you prefer) because one is called a college
student? Who do you think you are? Just a run-off-mill graduate student.
Just an ordinary Joe Schmo and you better start getting used to it right now!

>Now, how on the Earth could a "college
>student" make any kind of general impression in this very respectful
>international (not only HUNGARYan) discussion list?

        I am getting the distinct impression that you don't understand
English well enough and that's why you have so much trouble understanding
what is said to you. Why shouldn't a "college student" be able to make a
general impression? A cleaning lady can make a general impression. A
homeless wino can make a general impression. And, of course, a graduate
student of mathematics whose head is full of himself, can also make a
general impression.

        Eva Balogh

Taking 5 minutes to read what follows can change your life :


  I saw an article in an internet newsgroup telling me I could
  make $50,000 within a month for an investment of only $5.

  I thought it  was a huge joke. I spoke  to my wife, attorney
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  burned, and I didn't want it to be me. Of course, I rejected
  the idea at  first. after a short period of  about two weeks
  ,I thought  : "I have already  heard of such things.  But on
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  5$ into the fire, I wouldn't  mind it that much, and gave it
  a try .After all I needed a LOT more than five dollars.


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  could not believe it! Soon, hundreds,  and then thousands of
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  bought myself a car and things I wanted for a long long time
  for my wife and kids!


  If you follow the three steps  below, there is no reason why
  the  same shouldn't  happen  to you!  This  is a  legitimate
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  If  you  are not  interested,  then  don't participate,  but
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  The procedure is simple: 1) Write your name and address on 5
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  following 5 addresses.:


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     148 South Downlen #796
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  2. Olivier Arcadipane
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  3. Josef Malzer,
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     EUROPE - AUSTRIA

  4. Josh Jones
     8012 Edgewood Dr.
     Ham Lake, MN         USA

  5. Guido Schonkeren
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     9716 JL Groningen
     the Netherlands      EUROPE

  2) Now remove the top name from the list, and move the other
  four names up. In other words,  #5 becomes #4 and so on. Put
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  editor such as  Notepad,  in your   "accessories" window (If
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  will do.

  3) Post  the article to at  least 200 newsgroups.  There are
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  You  are now  in  the mail  order  investment business,  and
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  From time to  time, when you see your name  no longer on the
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  small.  the amount of money had to be 200 times bigger,  and
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  thousands of members join in every day ! you CAN'T lose !!!!

  Remember- read the instructions  carefully, and play fairly.
  That's the  only way this will  work. Get a printout  so you
  can refer back to this article easily.

  Try to  keep a  list of  everyone that  sends you  money and
  always keep an eye on the  postings to make sure everyone is
  playing fairly. You know where your name should be.

  REMEMBER-HONESTY IS  THE BEST  POLICY.  YOU  DO NOT  NEED TO
  CHEAT THIS  IDEA TO  MAKE MONEY!!   BESIDES,NOT  PLAYING THE
  GAME  FAIRLY  IS ILLEGAL.SO  LET'S  BE  REASONABLE AND  PLAY
  FAIRLY,SO WE CAN ALL ENJOY THE INTERNET GOLD MINE.

  GOOD LUCK  FOR YOU ALL, And  remember, play fair  and you'll
  win,  I don't want to mention what might happen to those who
  won't.   AND  AGAIN,SEE  YOU NEXT  TIME  WITH SOMETHING  YOU
  WANTED FOR A LONG TIME !!!

  IF you don't make money work, who will? ;-) (cfr. shareware).
  Just do it!

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

> I quoted Simone Weil in the hope
>that we may ease the tension generated by his slanderous lies against
>me, and what did he answer? Tell me Eva, what did he answer? He ans-
>wered by associating Ferenc Szalasi, the infamous Hungarian Nyilas-
>Part leader and wartime criminal with Simone. Does it make any sense
>to you, Eva? What is your "general impression" about this kind of
>behavior?
>
>

Keep right on lying, pal. You're making an absolute ass of yourself.
Sam Stowe

North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

Sam Stower about Heidegger:
>
> Heidegger's sympathies for National Socialism did
> not end in 1934. He decided that the chaps who were implementing it
> weren't up to the task. He was also peeved because they did not look to
> him specifically for intellectual guidance in implementing the new
> Sonderweg (Special Way) between Russian communism and American capitalism.

It is worse than Victor Farias.                                  (Sz. Zoli)

Replay: Andy is full swing on the attack:                           (Sz. Z.)

> I am not a Yanke,but a canadian.I do not love Americans,but I still holds
> them above a lot of other nations,who can thank the Yanks,for lots of there
> existence and bussiness and technologie and oil and a secure sleep at night.
> The hatred what this person has against America would justify his expulsion.
> Harsh words?Maybe,but to bite the hand wich feeds you is worst.
> Andy.

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Sam accused French intellectuels to influence the murdering of
>3million people by Pol Pot. He is so pathological in his anti-
>French sentiments (a kind of racism) that he associated Simone
>Weil, the famous French Christian thinker with Hitler, Szalasi,
>etc. He is  not a typical American. I'm pretty sure about this.
>

It's "intellectual", moron, not "intellectuel." How many times do you need
to be corrected before you finally get it right?
Sam Stowe

North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

September 20, 1996

Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>
> In addition I would like to state that not only does A. Albu need
> to read history he must also stop taking those halucigens that he is on!
> It is one of the craziest non-sense I have ever heard on thsi topic!
>
> Too bad that you got out of bed this morning -- I guess you are going to
> blame us for that too!
>
> Perhaps back to Kindergarten for you Mr. Albu, you seem to have missed a
> lot of basic training (like potty) as you just did some doo doo in your
> own pants!
> Peter Soltesz
>
> On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, _JELIKO wrote:
>
> > A Albu writes:
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > > Just for the Record:
> >
> > > 1. Without American Intervention in the 1st WW it would had not been:
> >
> > > National Socialism
> > > Hitler
> > > Gas Chambers and Death camps
> > > Gulag
> > > Miserable totalitarian concoction on Hungary
> >
> > > As far as liberating France, Germans were there before and they left.
> >
> >
> > > 2. Without British Intervention in the previous century.
> > > Would had been no Prussia, we would have ten or more German
> > > states the size of Holland probably part of and already unified Europe.
> >
> >
> > > 3. That's why America has a moral obligation for solving what it
> > > has created, ethnic nightmares all over defeated Europe.
> >
> > I strongly recommend a volume of History 101.
> >
> > Regards,Jeliko.
> >



I would suggest both of you to go back and rethink the rise of Prussia
and the unification of Germany. The Germans history writing is getting
closer of doing just that. There is strong circumstantial evidence of
what forces were behind the rise of a small Prussia to a power that in
no time was able to challenge and defeat the old order. In that new
German Empire the traditional value system established by the western
civilization was reneged. The German school argued for the  primacy of
the Germanic values as direct descendants of ancient Greek. .Was only a
question of time before the tribal values of the Germanic Nibelungian
past were risen to national creed. From hire to the monsters, Hitler &
co. was a logical expected normal progression.

The question to be answered is what forces destroyed the structure
protecting the value system of the Western Civilization.

Mark:
>
> Zoltan,
>
> In your last posting you brought my name up again. You say I cannot find ap-
> propriate quotes from you....
>
> Well, when have I and why would I?

You repeatedly claimed that in my opinion the Almighty sent
the AIDS to the Earth in order to punish homosexuals. I
never claimed this. I never said anything like that or
anything similar about the Almighty. My religious convictions
would never allow to accept such a position.

You simply lied or maybe you mixed different opinions from
different persons. It is so easy when you are too busy to
spread your agenda over different lists. When you do so, it
is nearly impossible to pay attention to individual opinions.

> If anyone on the List believes that their god deals out sicknesses
> and horror on
> people and even animals because they 'go against His way,' I'd be
> interested in
> hearing their interpretation on why wonderful Ms. Weil got untimely
> sick and
> died at such an early age. What did she do wrong?

The acts of the Almighty are not this simple, as you say here.
He would not "deal out" sicknesses and horror. People have
real choices in their behavior, therefore they have real res-
ponsibilities. (Lugaris, the diver, was e.g. irresponsible when
he almost infected his medical helper with AIDS.)

Simone Weil became sick because she shared the sufferings of
his people during the war. She could have been cured, but she
refused to take more food than people in the occupied areas
had. Because she wanted to share everything with them. So she
died. And nothing was wrong with her.
                                                     Sz. Zoli

I qouted recently from Simone Weil's biography:

> >       |  By the time she entered college
> >       |  she was writing incisive critiques of Marxist thought.
> >       |  Nonetheless she continued to oppose capitalist systems
> >       |  of production, not so much because the elite own the
> >       |  means of production but because another more fundamental
> >       |  conflict had been added, "by the very means of
> >       |  production, between those who have the machine at their
> >       |  disposal and those who are at the disposal of the
> >       |  machine."

I got the following answer from Sam Stower:
>
> In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> > writes:
>
> >She was critical about the Marxism but she also rejected capitalism.
> >Now, undereducated Yankee bullie-boys used to condemn this kind of
> >position as "third way" advocacy. Especially, if they don't know
> >nothing about the European culture, the French culture.
>
>
> Other major exponents of the "third way" included Hitler, Szalasi, Pol Pot
> and the leaders of Sendero Luminoso and Tupac Amaru. Strange how that
> third way always seems to take a detour through a blood bath.

                                                                Sz. Zoli

Sam:
>
> A guy with your exquisite sensibilities ought to be haunting
> some Left Bank cafe, smoking Gauloises and talking earnestly about the
> philosophy of Fu'ko' Mihai. Just think -- France's gain would be our loss.

What?! France's gain would be OUR loss? Who are you talking about?
About you and WHO? I just can't believe, that you want to make
your anti-French bigotry to be a "general impression" (a'la Balogh
Eva) in this list.

> Born to laugh at hurricanes.
Hurricanes, actually, kill. The death toll of the last one in North
Carolina is more then 17 people. None of them is a friend or family
member of Sam, I assume.
                                                          Sz. Zoli

Regarding  Eva B's recent posting enclosed below:

Very well put, Ms. Balogh.  You are clear, articulate and make sense.
(I also thought Andy's response was well-thought and wasn't any kind
of aggressive attack...)

Best wishes.

A visszonti'ra'sra,
Mark



> At 11:08 PM 9/19/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
> >ESB:
> >> You may not find the exact quote but the general impression remains.
> >> And they find that hard to understand.
> >
> >Dear Eva, you at least tried to find the quotes. But never found
> >anything. Funny, huhh?
>
>         Dear Zoli, where on earth did you get the idea that I was spending
> precious hours looking for quotations from you. I was speaking in general
> terms. You and others like you keep saying the most God-awful things about
> the United States and Americans in general but, of course, you never say it
> outright: "I hate this place and I look down on Americans. I am and
> Europeans in general are superior to Americans." In so many words we will
> never find quotes from you but that is what you mean.
>
> >You just don't have it, and you keep
> >accusing me by slanderous lies. Why? Why would you involve yourself
> >in a such a low game? Tell me, please.
>
>         I have the feeling that you have serious problems with
> self-perception. There are hundreds of people who read your letters, many of
> which conveyed the idea of European superiority, but for some strange reason
> you call people who bring this to the attention of others liars.
>
> >Eva, you invented for us your notion of "general impression". The
> >fact of the matter is that you and your friends created this general
> >impression, nobody else. I don't even have the power to do so.
>
>         The notion of "general impression" doesn't need to be invented. We
> all know what it means.
>
> >Just look Sam, how desperate he is. I quoted Simone Weil in the hope
> >that we may ease the tension generated by his slanderous lies against
> >me, and what did he answer? Tell me Eva, what did he answer? He ans-
> >wered by associating Ferenc Szalasi, the infamous Hungarian Nyilas-
> >Part leader and wartime criminal with Simone. Does it make any sense
> >to you, Eva? What is your "general impression" about this kind of
> >behavior?
>
>         I haven't read all the correspondence concerning Simone Weil and
> therefore I don't know what Sam said to you concerning Simone Weil and
> Szalasi. However, I am going to tell you one thing right at the beginning:
> Sam Stowe is a very smart man and normally he doesn't say stupid things. He
> may say certain things with a good dose of American humor and straight
> forwardness alien to Hungarian culture, a characteristic which Gyula Horn in
> his autobiography called "nyers," but he normally hits the nail on the head.
>
>
> >Tell me, Eva, dear, what can I do about the general impression here?
>
>         Unfortunately, this is a rhetorical question on your part and you
> have no intention of doing anything about it. However, here are some ideas.
> Stop the "dear" business as the first step. Second, it would help if you
> concentrated on your English. Perhaps your problems expressing yourself in
> English on a certain level adds to the generally negative impression. Third,
> try to see the world less black and white. And fourth, try to appreciate the
> American reality around you. Otherwise you will go back to Hungary without
> the slightest benefit of a fairly longish foreign stay. But, of course, it
> is possible that Amos is right: you are just a jerk.
>
> >The general impression here is the impression made forcefully by the
> >most powerful participiants. (The powerful, who can threaten by
> >making me to lose my job or by my expulsion from the United States.)
>
>         No one threatened you with expulsion. Not even "a most powerful
> participants" will impress the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization with
> tales of your hatred of the United States. It is not a crime.
>
> >And this kind of "general impression" is impressed on us by a kind of
> >very typical entellectuel terror.
>
>         The word "entellectuel" doen't exist in English. And what on earth
> are you talking about when you invoke the word "terror."
>
> >I was publicly despised by
> >Sam, as a "college student".
>
>         One of your problems that you don't listen. Jeliko only yesterday
> tried to explain that in the United States we don't fall on our faces just
> because someone is a professor or anything else for that matter. And, may I
> remind you, your English stands in your way again. Your sentence above is
> not really English. And let me add another thing: since when one is
> humiliated (despised, if you prefer) because one is called a college
> student? Who do you think you are? Just a run-off-mill graduate student.
> Just an ordinary Joe Schmo and you better start getting used to it right now!
>
> >Now, how on the Earth could a "college
> >student" make any kind of general impression in this very respectful
> >international (not only HUNGARYan) discussion list?
>
>         I am getting the distinct impression that you don't understand
> English well enough and that's why you have so much trouble understanding
> what is said to you. Why shouldn't a "college student" be able to make a
> general impression? A cleaning lady can make a general impression. A
> homeless wino can make a general impression. And, of course, a graduate
> student of mathematics whose head is full of himself, can also make a
> general impression.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>

Szekely Z. At 04:12 PM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Replay: Andy is full swing on the attack:                           (Sz. Z.)
>
>> I am not a Yanke,but a canadian.< snip rest of Andy's post>

And this, your recently arrived reply to Andy's post helps to confirm Eva's
thoughts - relating to your knowledge (rather lack there of) of the English
Language.  You are definately showing signs of being incapable of
interpreting written English.  But given the benefit of the doubt to you
(which we do in these neck of the woods) that you are perhaps capable of
interpreting in English, the only other logical deduction would be that of
Amos.

And just before you return to that well displayed higher than normal saddle
of yours - no, I am not an American - and yes - I am extremely disappointed
that *any* Hungarian would, could, or even *entertain the thought* of
behaving as you do while being a guest of *any* foreign country.

Also, I stand strong by my original thought - that *if* or when you return
to Hungary - you will then likely be doing the same - only aimed at Hungary
- and yes yes yes!  You have just been stereo-typed for the second time
today - in case you missed it!

Oh ... and I almost forgot!  You might like to re-read the post of Jelico's
rumlings!  (If you have any troubles interpreting - feel free to ask for
help!  There are many, many capable translators on this group)!  And then,
you might enjoy re-reading Amos' Eva's and all of the other posts relating
to this thread.  Ditto for offer of help!!!   When all is said and done; you
might try to attempt the "unthinkable" - and apologize for publicly
attributing to demeaning the "reputation" of Hungarian students in foreign
lands at large?

Aniko

Dear Zoltan,

Frankly, I do not see how your religious convictions would not allow you to
do. You've called several people liars, insulted others in different ways, even
insult nations and cultures, ... then you cry (this verb can also mean 'shout')
 that no one can quote you.  Stop the game, Zoltan.  It's already very old.
Your religious convictions sound interesting.... but you sometimes sure don't
sound very 'Christian.'  (Oh, please don't demand me to pull up exact quotes
to support this!)

If I ever did mix your opinions with those of others I do apologize.  (Actually
,
I am not sure, but I think I may have already apologized if this did happen.)

It's good to see we agree about S. Weil's death.  If god's will and ways are
supposed to be mysterious and wondrous, I do not think any human is able to
comprehend, analyze and categorize them.

A visszonti'ra'sra,
Mark

Zoltan - At 04:38 PM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote in answer to Mark:

<snip>

>Simone Weil became sick because she shared the sufferings of
>his people during the war. She could have been cured, but she
>refused to take more food than people in the occupied areas
>had. Because she wanted to share everything with them. So she
>died. And nothing was wrong with her.
>                                                     Sz. Zoli
>
Yes, Zoltan!  And I suppose that your next posting will be telling us that
you personally were present and privy to that "observation" yourself while
giving her moral support by holding her hand during her last moments?

Good Try!  Read Amos' post!  You can, I am sure learn alot from it if you
only try!  (after all ... I do have a lot of faith in the intelligence of
Hungarians).
Aniko

Zoltan,

While we're on the subect of quotes. I would like to say that you should read
people's messages better before you respond.  I think I remember already saying
several WEEKS ago that if I did get you mixed up with another list member that
I was sorry. Don't play this game of dragging that business all over as if
something slanderous is going on. I even said something to the effect that if
I did make a mistake you could simply clarify it by copying a few sentences I
wrote saying that god had nothing to do with using AIDS as a punishment for
 homosexuals...

Either you never got that message or I never received your reponse ... or
perhaps you could not get yourself to send the requested message. If you
never did respond to that, how are you surprised that I misunderstood your
stance?  Why are you so persistently aggressive?

Maybe I'm not as smart as you, because I am a US American (Wow, I'm even an
ignorant American who's live in Asia and Europe and speaks more than four lan-
guages! Do they really exist?), but I shouldn't say that... because I cannot
find any quote where you said that *I* am dumb because Americans are dumb. Of
course, I can never deduct or infer anything....

Well, I hope you have a nice weekend that will put you in better spirits for
the coming week.

A visszonti'ra'sra,
Mark

Zoli, I am coming to the conclusion that you misunderstand 75% of
what Sam is telling you. His speech is full of wonderful irony and you miss
most of it. You miss all his jokes. I am getting more and more convinced
that your lack of understanding idiomatic English is at the root of the problem
.

        Here is an example.

        Sam said,

>> A guy with your exquisite sensibilities ought to be haunting
>> some Left Bank cafe, smoking Gauloises and talking earnestly about the
>> philosophy of Fu'ko' Mihai. Just think -- France's gain would be our loss.

        Your answer,

>What?! France's gain would be OUR loss? Who are you talking about?
>About you and WHO?

        The guy is you, Zoli. When Sam talks about "exquisite sensibilities"
he means exactly the opposite: he thinks that you have none. "France's gain
would be our loss" is again highly ironic. It means that if you with your
"exquisite sensibilities" left this country and moved to France to be part
of the French intellectuals hanging out on the Left Bank, France would would
gain an intellectual giant like you and your moving away from here would be
an awful loss to the United States. Now surely, you understand now that Sam
is making fun of you.

>> Born to laugh at hurricanes.

>Hurricanes, actually, kill. The death toll of the last one in North
>Carolina is more then 17 people. None of them is a friend or family
>member of Sam, I assume.

        Again, you don't understand Sam's English or his American sense of
humor. As you know Sam has had a share of hurricanes. This last time he was
out of electricity for a week and believe me that is no fun. He is not
really laughing at hurricanes. He knows that they can kill but since he is
in a region where hurricanes are common he is resigned at encountering
hurricanes with a certain frequency. That's all he is trying to say.

        Work on your English. It is a wonderful language.

        Eva Balogh

Eva Balogh At 06:21 PM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>        Zoli, I am coming to the conclusion that you misunderstand 75% of
>what Sam is telling you. His speech is full of wonderful irony and you miss
>most of it. You miss all his jokes. I am getting more and more convinced
>that your lack of understanding idiomatic English is at the root of the
problem.
>
>        Here is an example.
>
>        Sam said,
>
>>> A guy with your exquisite sensibilities ought to be haunting
>>> some Left Bank cafe, smoking Gauloises and talking earnestly about the
>>> philosophy of Fu'ko' Mihai. Just think -- France's gain would be our loss.
>
>        Your answer,
>
>>What?! France's gain would be OUR loss? Who are you talking about?
>>About you and WHO?
>
>        The guy is you, Zoli. When Sam talks about "exquisite sensibilities"
>he means exactly the opposite: he thinks that you have none. "France's gain
>would be our loss" is again highly ironic. It means that if you with your
>"exquisite sensibilities" left this country and moved to France to be part
>of the French intellectuals hanging out on the Left Bank, France would would
>gain an intellectual giant like you and your moving away from here would be
>an awful loss to the United States. Now surely, you understand now that Sam
>is making fun of you.
>
>>> Born to laugh at hurricanes.
>
>>Hurricanes, actually, kill. The death toll of the last one in North
>>Carolina is more then 17 people. None of them is a friend or family
>>member of Sam, I assume.
>
>        Again, you don't understand Sam's English or his American sense of
>humor. As you know Sam has had a share of hurricanes. This last time he was
>out of electricity for a week and believe me that is no fun. He is not
>really laughing at hurricanes. He knows that they can kill but since he is
>in a region where hurricanes are common he is resigned at encountering
>hurricanes with a certain frequency. That's all he is trying to say.
>
>        Work on your English. It is a wonderful language.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Bravo Eva!  Keep your thoughts coming .....!!!
Best Regards,
Aniko

At 05:27 PM 9/20/96 -0400, Aniko wrote:

>Also, I stand strong by my original thought - that *if* or when you return
>to Hungary - you will then likely be doing the same - only aimed at Hungary
>- and yes yes yes!  You have just been stereo-typed for the second time
>today - in case you missed it!

        This is a very good observation and most likely it is very true.
Once I had a friend (well, to be more precise, he was a friend of a friend)
whose name was also Zoltan. But this Zoltan left Hungary in 1956 and ended
up in Canada. Zoli and I could remain civil to each other for only about
half an hour. After that we usually had a huge fight. About what? Well,
everything under the sun. For example, the English language. Zoli, who was
then almost thirty, much older than I, had a great deal more difficulty with
the English language than most of us. He had a thick accent and his grammar
was also pretty atrocious. However, that didn't prevent him from saying
derogatory things about the English language. Really stupid and outrageous
things, like "English is a primitive language, you just stick something like
-ful to a word in order to create another one. Like "beauty" and
"beautiful." When I pointed out that Hungarian does the same thing: "szep,"
"szepseg" he could claim that it wasn't the same thing. He criticized
absolutely everything about Canada and the Canadians. He kept complaining
about the speediness of Canadian constructions as opposed to--hmmm, the
Hungarian construction crews. At the time the old streetcars were being
removed from Ottawa and the rails were taken up. Of course, it took a few
weeks before the rails were off and the roads were repaved. You should have
heard Zoli going on and on about these "stupid Canadians" as opposed "the
Hungarians who were so much more superior" in every possible way.

        Well, at last, ten years later he could go back to Hungary. First,
he almost killed someone on some country road because he thought that the
Hungarian roads were "superior" to those lousy Canadian ones. He received
three months suspended sentence. And then came the great surprise. Hungary
wasn't as perfect as he remembered. So, he went on and on about how superior
Canada was and how lousy Hungary was. I bet everybody just loved him for it,
especially sometime in 1964-65 when poor Hungarians were sitting behind the
Iron Curtain unable to see for themselves those countries our Zoli was
talking about.

        Eva Balogh

Mark - At 06:00 PM 9/20/96 EDT, you wrote:
>Zoltan,
>
<snip>
>Maybe I'm not as smart as you, because I am a US American (Wow, I'm even an
>ignorant American who's live in Asia and Europe and speaks more than four lan-
>guages! Do they really exist?), but I shouldn't say that... because I cannot
>find any quote where you said that *I* am dumb because Americans are dumb. Of
>course, I can never deduct or infer anything....

First of all Mark; congrats for having the internal fortitude to withstand
the agony of learning four languages; secondly, you raise an interesting
point - "smart" - ..... well, from my personal perspective smart cannot be
simply applied to academic success or achievements alone - but rather it
depicts the ability of any person being able to apply that, which they learn
academically or otherwise to benefit the "real world".

My guess for what it's worth at this point is,  that who ever is financing
the education of Zoltan; be it himself, his family; or an independant
organization; their return of investment has simply and already hit rock bottom
.

Best regards,
Aniko.

Mark:

> Stop the game, Zoltan.  It's already very old.
> Your religious convictions sound interesting.... but you sometimes sure don't
> sound very 'Christian.'  (Oh, please don't demand me to pull up exact quotes
> to support this!)
(You don't have any quotes, anyway... ;-)

I am a Catholic. And according to the tenets of Catholicism,
we as human beings have the free will, and also the freedom
to choose. It is very boring to repeat this over and over
again. We have to bear of the consequences of our own choices,
of our own mistakes, of our own sins. That's the cross you
have to bear if you are a straight or if you are a gay man.

The early Christians in Rome did not expect God to save them
from the throats of the lions. They just accepted the death
as a sign of their beliefs. Roman emperors went crazy not
being able to handle them, and they killed Peter, they killed
Paul just the same way as Manasseh killed Isaiah or Pilate
killed Jesus. These are facts. You can not measure the Almighty
with measuring rod. (And the approaching Yom Kippur for the
Jews is also talking about this renewed relationship to Yahweh,
the Jewish name of God Almighty.)

I am also happy, that you accept the death of Simone as a sign
of true belief.

With my best wishes:                                 Sz. Zoli

Aniko:
> >Simone Weil became sick because she shared the sufferings of
> >his people during the war. She could have been cured, but she
> >refused to take more food than people in the occupied areas
> >had. Because she wanted to share everything with them. So she
> >died. And nothing was wrong with her.
> >                                                     Sz. Zoli
> >
> Yes, Zoltan!  And I suppose that your next posting will be telling us that
> you personally were present and privy to that "observation" yourself while
> giving her moral support by holding her hand during her last moments?

You bet, I would have been overjoyed and very happy to be
there. It would have been a great moral support for me!!

                                                Sz. Zoli

I already posted the slanderous lie, produced by Sam against me.
I also said, if Sam would not support his claim by appropriate
quotes from me, I would regard him a plain Internet crook.

He never presented the quotes. Of course, because they don't exist.
:-) ;-) ;-0

> >Sam,
> >
> >you look really desparate about the French culture.
> >You can not understand, that in a HUNGARY list it
> >is not fair to attack somebody on the sole basis
> >of his/her French origin. You would create the
> >false impression in the reader, that Hungarians
> >feed anti-French sentiments. I hope you understand
> >that it is not nice.
>
> Coming from a guy who attacks people based on their Jewish heritage and/or
> American origins, this is rich indeed. Do you have a sign taped to your
> back that says "hypocrite"?

I never attacked anybody based on their Jewish heritage and/or
American origins. It is a simple lie, and a slanderous one.

                                                     Sz. Zoli

At 07:15 PM 9/20/96 -0400, Aniko wrote:

>First of all Mark; congrats for having the internal fortitude to withstand
>the agony of learning four languages; secondly, you raise an interesting
>point - "smart" - ..... well, from my personal perspective smart cannot be
>simply applied to academic success or achievements alone - but rather it
>depicts the ability of any person being able to apply that, which they learn
>academically or otherwise to benefit the "real world".

        How true. I have a young friend (she is almost like a daughter to me
because ever since she was 13 years old she practically lived at my place)
who went to Yale as an undergraduate (summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa) and
got a Ph.D. from Princeton. As a grad student she was already publishing
articles and she is very, very good academically. But, she has no "common
sense" whatsoever. She might be smart one way but not very smart in many
other ways.

>My guess for what it's worth at this point is,  that who ever is financing
>the education of Zoltan; be it himself, his family; or an independant
>organization; their return of investment has simply and already hit rock
bottom.

        Instead of going on and on about Catholicism, why don't you answer
the letters concerning your problems with English. You could always
apologize to the people and explain that you didn't understand what they
were talking about. This would actually be very nice and it would get your
off the hook. (That means that people wouldn't think that you are a real
jerk. They would chuck it up (think that it is!) to your lack of English.) I
would also work very hard on my English if I were you. I
know--mathematicians don't have to use language very much. Yale's math
department thought so too. So, they put all those Chinese mathematical
wizards to teach freshman math. And you know what, the poor students didn't
understand a word what was going on because of the Chinese-Japanese-English
of the lectures. I don't have to explain: not too many Yale freshmen decided
to major in math two years later!!

        Apologize. I think it would be good for you and everybody else.

        Eva Balogh

At 06:21 PM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>        Zoli, I am coming to the conclusion that you misunderstand 75% of
>what Sam is telling you. His speech is full of wonderful irony and you miss
>most of it. You miss all his jokes. I am getting more and more convinced
>that your lack of understanding idiomatic English is at the root of the
problem.
>
>        Here is an example.
>
>        Sam said,
>
>>> A guy with your exquisite sensibilities ought to be haunting
>>> some Left Bank cafe, smoking Gauloises and talking earnestly about the
>>> philosophy of Fu'ko' Mihai. Just think -- France's gain would be our loss.
>
>        Your answer,
>
>>What?! France's gain would be OUR loss? Who are you talking about?
>>About you and WHO?
>
>        The guy is you, Zoli. When Sam talks about "exquisite sensibilities"
>he means exactly the opposite: he thinks that you have none. "France's gain
>would be our loss" is again highly ironic. It means that if you with your
>"exquisite sensibilities" left this country and moved to France to be part
>of the French intellectuals hanging out on the Left Bank, France would would
>gain an intellectual giant like you and your moving away from here would be
>an awful loss to the United States. Now surely, you understand now that Sam
>is making fun of you.
>
>>> Born to laugh at hurricanes.
>
>>Hurricanes, actually, kill. The death toll of the last one in North
>>Carolina is more then 17 people. None of them is a friend or family
>>member of Sam, I assume.
>
>        Again, you don't understand Sam's English or his American sense of
>humor. As you know Sam has had a share of hurricanes. This last time he was
>out of electricity for a week and believe me that is no fun. He is not
>really laughing at hurricanes. He knows that they can kill but since he is
>in a region where hurricanes are common he is resigned at encountering
>hurricanes with a certain frequency. That's all he is trying to say.
>
>        Work on your English. It is a wonderful language.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>

Eva, you have the patience of a saint.  I have long given up reacting to
such boors as Zoli.

Charlie
Charles Vamossy
New York Magyar Haz
213 East 82nd Street
New York NY  10028
212 249-9360

Let me how you make out....

At 05:35 PM 9/20/96 +0200, you wrote:
>Taking 5 minutes to read what follows can change your life :
>
>
>  I saw an article in an internet newsgroup telling me I could
>  make $50,000 within a month for an investment of only $5.
>
>  I thought it  was a huge joke. I spoke  to my wife, attorney
>  and friends about  it, and they all agreed it  was some kind
>  of scam. I  can't stand scams, because  usually someone gets
>  burned, and I didn't want it to be me. Of course, I rejected
>  the idea at  first. after a short period of  about two weeks
>  ,I thought  : "I have already  heard of such things.  But on
>  the Internet ?!?!? ". I decided  that even if I had to throw
>  5$ into the fire, I wouldn't  mind it that much, and gave it
>  a try .After all I needed a LOT more than five dollars.
>
>
>  Two weeks  later, I began  receiving money in  the mail!   I
>  could not believe it! Soon, hundreds,  and then thousands of
>  dollars began to  roll in. Within 4 weeks, I  had received a
>  total of $32,445!  It came from everywhere in  the world. My
>  bank account has changed its "-"  into a big "+" (++++)!!!,I
>  bought myself a car and things I wanted for a long long time
>  for my wife and kids!
>
>
>  If you follow the three steps  below, there is no reason why
>  the  same shouldn't  happen  to you!  This  is a  legitimate
>  investment  opportunity. You  invest $5,  and you  receive a
>  return on  your investment. So  does the next  investor. NOT
>  ILLEGAL, NOT A CHAIN LETTER- PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE.
>
>  If  you  are not  interested,  then  don't participate,  but
>  please print this article and pass  it on to someone who may
>  be interested, so they can take advantage.
>
>  The procedure is simple: 1) Write your name and address on 5
>  sheets of paper.   Below that, write the  words, "Please add
>  me to  your mailing  list." Fold  $1 note  or bank  draft or
>  money order  in each  piece of  paper and  mail them  to the
>  following 5 addresses.:
>
>
>  1. Bill Brown
>     148 South Downlen #796
>     Beaumont, Tx. 77707     USA
>
>  2. Olivier Arcadipane
>      237 rue Francois Andre
>      7390 Quaregnon       BELGIUM
>
>  3. Josef Malzer,
>     Brandhof 1
>     4701 Bad Schallerbach
>     EUROPE - AUSTRIA
>
>  4. Josh Jones
>     8012 Edgewood Dr.
>     Ham Lake, MN         USA
>
>  5. Guido Schonkeren
>     van de Hoopstraat 21
>     9716 JL Groningen
>     the Netherlands      EUROPE
>
>  2) Now remove the top name from the list, and move the other
>  four names up. In other words,  #5 becomes #4 and so on. Put
>  your name as the  fifth one on the list.   Use a simple text
>  editor such as  Notepad,  in your   "accessories" window (If
>  you have  MS-Windows),or DOS  editor.   In fact,  any editor
>  will do.
>
>  3) Post  the article to at  least 200 newsgroups.  There are
>  17,000, so  it shouldn't  be hard  to find  that many.   Try
>  posting to as  many  newsgroups as you can,   and the bigger
>  the newsgroup is,  the more  people are to see your message!
>
>  You  are now  in  the mail  order  investment business,  and
>  should start seeing returns within a week or two. Of course,
>  the more newsgroups you post to, the greater your return is.
>  If you  wish to remain anonymous,  you may use  a psuedonym,
>  call yourself  "The Manager", "The Boss",  whatever but make
>  sure your address is correct.
>
>  Now, here is why the system works:
>
>  -Of every  200 posts  I made, I  received 5  responses. Yes,
>  only 5. You make $5 for every 200 posts with your name at #5.
>
>  -Each person who  sent you $1 now also  makes 200 additional
>  postings with your name at #4. ie. 1000 postings. On average
>  therefore, 50 people will send you  $1 with your name at #4.
>  $50.
>
>  -Your 50 new agents make 200 postings each with your name at
>  #3 or  10,000 postings.  Average return  500 people  = $500.
>  They make  200 postings  each with  your name  at #2=100,000
>  postings=5000 return at $1 each=$5000.
>
>  -Finally, 5,000 people  make 200 postings with  your name at
>  #1 and  you get a return  of $50,000 before your  name drops
>  off the list. AND THATS IF  EVERYONE DOWN THE LINE MAKES 200
>  POSTINGS! Total income in one cycle=$55,000.
>
>  From time to  time, when you see your name  no longer on the
>  list,  you  take the  latest  posting  that appears  in  the
>  newsgroups, and  send out another $5,  and put your  name at
>  #5, and start posting again. Remember,  200 postings is only
>  a guideline. the more you post, the greater the return.
>
>  Lets review why you should do this. THE ONLY COST IS $5, AND
>  5 STAMPS, AND 5 ENVELOPES.  Anyone can afford $5 for such an
>  effortless investment with such SPECTACULAR RETURNS.
>
>  Some people have said to me,  "what happens if the scheme is
>  played out and no one sends me any money?  "Big Deal, so you
>  lose $5-but what are the chances of that happening ?? Do you
>  Realize that  NOBODY cares for  the LEGAL chance  of winning
>  such  a BIG  money as  50,000.00  $$$$ ????  and  all for  a
>  microscopic investment of five  separate dollars? just think
>  of all  of the new  Internet users that  join the  net every
>  day!!!
>
>  There are  millions of internet  users, and millions  of new
>  net surfers every  month !!!  This is the  great plus of the
>  Internet,  people all over the world can hear you and listen
>  carefully if you  talk reasonably.  Everyone  will take that
>  chance !  I agree,  If  it wasn't the  Internet,  and  was a
>  small circle  of people,  the chance  wouldn't have  been so
>  small.  the amount of money had to be 200 times bigger,  and
>  the chances were zero.  It wouldn't succeed.
>
>  But here, on the Internet, it is a giant village,  where new
>  thousands of members join in every day ! you CAN'T lose !!!!
>
>  Remember- read the instructions  carefully, and play fairly.
>  That's the  only way this will  work. Get a printout  so you
>  can refer back to this article easily.
>
>  Try to  keep a  list of  everyone that  sends you  money and
>  always keep an eye on the  postings to make sure everyone is
>  playing fairly. You know where your name should be.
>
>  REMEMBER-HONESTY IS  THE BEST  POLICY.  YOU  DO NOT  NEED TO
>  CHEAT THIS  IDEA TO  MAKE MONEY!!   BESIDES,NOT  PLAYING THE
>  GAME  FAIRLY  IS ILLEGAL.SO  LET'S  BE  REASONABLE AND  PLAY
>  FAIRLY,SO WE CAN ALL ENJOY THE INTERNET GOLD MINE.
>
>  GOOD LUCK  FOR YOU ALL, And  remember, play fair  and you'll
>  win,  I don't want to mention what might happen to those who
>  won't.   AND  AGAIN,SEE  YOU NEXT  TIME  WITH SOMETHING  YOU
>  WANTED FOR A LONG TIME !!!
>
>  IF you don't make money work, who will? ;-) (cfr. shareware).
>  Just do it!
>
>
Charles Vamossy
New York Magyar Haz
213 East 82nd Street
New York NY  10028
212 249-9360

Zoltan:  At 08:22 PM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I am a Catholic. And according to the tenets of Catholicism,<...>

Two thoughts;  One, I am sure that the management of the Catholic Church
would have about as equally a positive reaction to your demonstrated
actions; as have many of the posts the last several days.

Secondly,  I have been resisting at doing this; but now, I think it is time
to follow my initial instinct ....  Zoltan, this is for you; personally -
although it is a tad outdated in concept - when relating to today's
technological advantages ie; internet communications, it still serves as
food for thought.  Enjoy - feel the words - relate!

Edgar A Quest - Sermons we See:

"I'd rather see a sermon, than hear one any day
I'd rather one would walk with me, then merely show the way
The eye's a better pupil and more willing than the ear
Fine counsel is confusing, but example's always clear
And the best of all the preachers, are the men who live their creeds
For to see the good in action is what everybody needs
I can soon learn how to do it, if you'll let me see it done
I can watch your hands in action, but your tongue too fast may run
And the lectures you deliver, may be very wise and true
But I'd rather get my lesson, by observing what you do
For I may misunderstand you and the high advice you give, but there's no
misunderstanding in how you act and how you live".

I wish you luck in rationalizing the teachings of God - and putting them to
good use in your day to day life.  And, I hope that God will eventually
succeed in giving you the required brain capacity to do it with - since
.... oh well, enough said.

Aniko

Lest the subject title be misunderstood... the "old" hands are quite
aware of the fact that everything we post on the Usenet is rigorously
gathered, cataloged, and stored for perpetuity by several services
such as DejaNews, Alta Vista, and MANY others.

While there are means to avoid this, neophyte posters should be
cautioned that one day their utterances may come back to bite them.

Personally, I suggest that one ought not post anything one wouldn't
want his or her mother to read.

Just a word to the wise....

Bandi


> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

At 08:26 PM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Aniko:
>> >Simone Weil became sick because she shared the sufferings of
>> >his people during the war. She could have been cured, but she
>> >refused to take more food than people in the occupied areas
>> >had. Because she wanted to share everything with them. So she
>> >died. And nothing was wrong with her.
>> >                                                     Sz. Zoli
>> >
>> Yes, Zoltan!  And I suppose that your next posting will be telling us that
>> you personally were present and privy to that "observation" yourself while
>> giving her moral support by holding her hand during her last moments?
>
>You bet, I would have been overjoyed and very happy to be
>there. It would have been a great moral support for me!!
>
>                                                Sz. Zoli

Well Zolika, congratulations!  You are showing progress by coming on stream
(finally) to a train of thought.  Above, you depict first hand knowledge by
factualising that there was "nothing was wrong with her" - now you are
claiming that indeed you were not there; but had you been, it "would have
been a great moral support for" you.  My thought?  I wish that you had been
there, based on your many statement. Perhaps by having been there, gaining
that bout of moral support would have been sufficient to ensure that your
preachings are put into practice today.

Aniko
>

Aniko,

>Edgar A Quest - Sermons we See:
>"I'd rather see a sermon, than hear one any day...."

How profound!

Marina

Sam Stowe wrote:

>>important issues of the american policy-makers? You know Sam it is easy to
>>blame somebody thousand of miles away from the trouble. However one can ask
>>why are those problems are far away from the US. This would be a good questio
n
>>but I don't think the reason is the cultural difference.
>
>It is cultural difference, Janos. Think about it -- the troublesome
>neighbors you mention are troublesome precisely because they think they've
>found "THE" answer and want to impose it on the neighbors. If nothing
>else, the ideologies these cultures have forged make a convenient pretext
>for simply snatching land from the guy next door. In great measure, much
>of the latter half of the 20th Century for America has been a slow,
>painful withdrawal from such notions of justifying geopolitical
>expansionism through ideology. American politics incorporates ideology in

Well, of course there are cultural reasons (among others depending on how you
define culture) for being 'troublesome'. You know, Sam, I am not that stupid.
I would like you to read again what I wrote. Then you might realize that I
was telling something different. Namely, I doubt that the US have (and had)
not got powerful 'troublesome' neighbours because of its culture or cultural
difference from others. If my English was not clear I am sorry.
Now let me ask, do you think the US has no problematic neighbours purely or
mainly because her culture or cultural difference from others?

You also wrote:

>What would have happened if French and British soldiers had shown up in
>enough numbers and with rules of engagement that made it clear that the
>Serbs would pay an overwhelming cost for continuing the genocide?

and also:

>Amen to that last sentence, little brother! The point is, however, that we
>made the commitment when Europe wouldn't. Somalia proves what our military
>planners are talking about when they say they don't want to undertake such
>missions unless we have clear-cut, attainable goals and well-planned
>strategies for getting in and getting out.

Don't you think the later could have been written about Bosnia? (without of
course the "we made......Europe wouldn't") In other words the French and Brits
have tried but it was not a well planned action, just like Somalia. In both cas
e
the idea was that warring parties will respect the mighty power of the
 'westerners'
and when it turned out to be false these 'westerners' weren't really willing
to seriously engage the conflict.
In Bosnia, the turning point was when finally the NATO (mainly the US) used
military force. You are absolutly right it should have been
done much earlier. But you know Russia was (is?) more or less behind the Serbs
and if only the Europeans engage in conflict it might have not impressed the
 Russians
too much as the Europeans represent far less military power than the US. This
could reduce considerably the Europian courage to strike the Serbs alone.
Also if the US wait longer she might have found herself in a more serious
 problem.

>Americans are taho'sok only in the degree that they don't allow themselves
>to be seduced en masse by bad ideas. Too bad you didn't learn anything
>yourself during your sojourn here. So much arrogance on your part and so
>little foundation of accomplishment for it to rest on. And quite
>un-Hungarian, I might add.
>Sam Stowe

I don't know in what degree the Americans are "taho'sok", I was not talking
about THE Americans but about AN American. After reading your posts I have
the impression that you are who look down others (in this case the Europians)
and bashing others' culture.

J.Zs