Eva Balogh wonders why the Hungarian army seems to have stood by passively
during the suppression of the 1956 revolution:

> ... the size and strength of the army really doesn't matter in this
> particular discussion. Strong or weak, the army did nothing. Why not?
> Good question and I don't think that I know the answer. I don't know on
> whose side the army leadership stood and I don't know whether the Imre
> Nagy government ever asked the army brass to throw its whatever power on
> the side of the revolution. I do know that most of the recruits were sent
> home. If the army had not remained neutral but supported the revolution
> things might have turned out differently.

In the famous phrase of Imre Nagy, in his radio speech at dawn on
November 4, 1956: "Our armed forces are engaged in combat.  The cabinet is
standing firm."  [Csapataink harcban allnak!  A kormany a helyen van!]
As we know, this was a bit of an exaggeration, certainly as far as the
cabinet was concerned -- a few hours after the speech the entire membership
of the Nagy cabinet evaporated from the Parliament building, with the single,
honorable exception of Istvan Bibo.

Among the reasons why the Hungarian army offered no organized resistance:
the presence of Soviet "advisors" in all major units of the army; Soviet
control of all command, control, and communications; Soviet control of
all planning in the General Staff; and lack of any plans for defending the
country against an attack from the East.  In addition, the Hungarian
military chain of command was decapitated a few hours before the attack
when Minister of Defense General Maleter was arrested by the Soviets at
the Tokol airport, along with the Army Chief of Staff, General Kovacs.

Even under these conditions, the army did resist, if we can believe the
reports of General Zhukov published in the Yeltsin Files.  The reports
show a meticulous effort to paralyze the Hungarian army by disabling its
communications and supply infrastructure.  It is certainly possible that
Zhukov had his own reasons for exaggerating the level of resistance --
but his reports do mention significant resistance by scattered army units:

Excerpt from Zhukov's Nov 4, 12:00 report (Moscow time):

  ... Soviet army units have occupied the most important communications
  centers, including the long-range radio transmission facilities in
  Szolnok, all weapons and ammunition storage dumps, and other important
  military facilities... in Budapest the troops took over the Parliament
  building, the MDP KV building, the radio transmitter near the Parliament
  building... three of the Danube bridges, and a weapons and ammunition
  dump... the main bases of the Hungarian army have been surrounded.  Many
  units laid down their arms without resistance... our forces are under
  orders to restore the commands of officers removed by the rebels, and
  arrest the ones appointed by the rebels in their place... our troops
  have occupied all Hungarian airports...

Zhukov's Nov 5, 9:00 report:

  By the morning of Nov 5 we have disarmed the staff and command units of
  two infantry corps, and the units of five infantry divisions, two
  armored divisions, and five anti-aircraft artillery divisions, two
  tank regiments, three anti-tank regiments, and training facilities ...
  Our forces are in control of the entire Hungarian air force ...  In
  Budapest the rebels and the scattered Hungarian military units fighting
  on their side are offering desperate resistance...

Zhukov's Nov 8, 9:00 report:

  In Dunapentele, 50 kilometers from Budapest, our forces have broken
  the resistance of a Hungarian air defense artillery brigade and the
  rebel groups supporting them...

The "radio transmitter near the Parliament building" exists only in Zhukov's
imagination.  The same may be true about the rest of the divisions and
brigades in the report.  Zhukov may be lying and/or stretching the truth
here and there, but it seems quite likely that a few isolated army units
did resist in spite of the odds.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

At 10:55 AM 6/3/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:

>I can recommend the Collins English Dictionary for clearing up the=
 confusion
>in your mind about the meaning of words.  It gives as the first meaning of
>revolution "the overthrow or repudiation of a regime or political system by
>the governed".  For rebellion, "organized resistance or opposition to a
>government or other authority".  Quite apart from the slight negative=
 conno-
>tation of 'rebellion' applied to this case, as it is often meant to=
 describe
>rebellion against a lawful authority (e.g., 'Bosnian Serb rebels').

I'm such a fool!  There are dozens of books on 'revolution' in the library
in which the various authors try to provide some meaning to this rather
complex concept.  But why read the books when there are dictionaries that
provide the answers!  Also, I think that George Antony is referring me to a
dictionary because: a)he doesn't think that I can understand complex issues,
or b)he can't.  When I look in the dictionary under 'rebellion', the events
in Hungary of 1956 are mentioned.  Interestingly, no mention of Hungary is
made when I look under 'revolution'.  But, as I said before, the Hungarian
Revolution of 1956 will be remembered as such because that's what we call=
 it.

Now, if George Antony can come up with a dictionary definition of
'revolution' that mentions Hungary 1956 I'll call this dicta duel a draw. =
=20

rebellion (r=EE-b=E8l=B4yen) noun
1.      Open, armed, and organized resistance to a constituted government.
2.      An act or a show of defiance toward an authority or established=
 convention.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin rebellio, rebellion-, from
rebell=E2re, to rebel. See REBEL.]
Synonyms: rebellion, revolution, revolt, mutiny, insurrection, uprising.
These nouns denote acts of violence intended to change or overthrow an
existing order or authority. Rebellion is open, armed, organized resistance
to constituted political authority that often fails of its purpose: A
rebellion in the officer corps led to chaos in the armed forces. A
revolution is the overthrow of one government and its replacement with
another: The 20th century has seen several major revolutions, which in turn
have altered the balance of power among nations. Revolt is rejection of and
rebellion against a prevailing state of affairs or a controlling authority:
Fearing a taxpayers' revolt, the legislature passed a less confiscatory
revenue bill. Mutiny is revolt against constituted authority, especially by
sailors: The sailors, who had received low pay and poor rations, were
finally in a state of mutiny. Insurrection and uprising apply to popular
revolts that are sometimes limited or are viewed as being the first
indications of a more extensive rebellion: The freedom fighters withdrew
into the mountains, from which they mounted an insurrection against the
junta. The 1956 uprising in Hungary was soon quelled by ruthless Soviet
military action.

The American Heritage=AE Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition
copyright =A9 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed
from InfoSoft International, Inc. All rights reserved.

Joe Szalai

In article >,
 (Andrew Revill) wrote:


>
>    My next question, if anyone is able to help me, is this: Can anyone
> recommend to me an authentic Hungarian restaurant in the UK? I'm sure
> there must be one or two good ones. I know there is a large and lively
> Hungarian community around the West London area.I have asked around here,
> but with no luck, so if anyone has any information, please let me know.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
> --
> Andrew Revill )


Hi Andrew

The only one I know of is the Gay Hussar in Soho but being in such a
prominent location means it's not cheap to say the least.

It's a pity there aren't many Hungarian restaurants outside of London.

Regards

Stephen Varga

SEEKING International Development/Management Opportunities
(Currently interviewing in Dubai, United Arab Emirates - Middle East)

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Thank You,
Michael Mason

Gabor Fencsik writes:

> In the famous phrase of Imre Nagy, in his radio speech at dawn on
> November 4, 1956: "Our armed forces are engaged in combat.  The cabinet
is
> standing firm."  [Csapataink harcban allnak!  A kormany a helyen van!]
> As we know, this was a bit of an exaggeration, certainly as far as the
> cabinet was concerned -- a few hours after the speech the entire
membership
> of the Nagy cabinet evaporated from the Parliament building, with the
single,
> honorable exception of Istvan Bibo.

There were scattered Hungarian units engaged with the invaders on the
morning of Nov 4 and for a several days thereafter. But I would also
disagree with any statement that the resistance was a government organized
formal "war" like affair. There were some artillery duels early morning on
Nov 4 between Russian and Hungarian units near the castle in Buda.

Hungarian artillery units wiped out part of a Russian convoy, leaving Tokol
(as a matter of fact the convoy was carrying some Hungarians also).
The rest of the convoy escaped back to the Tokol base.

On Nov 9, there were Russian air attacks on Hungarian units near a village
not far from Buda (sorry the mind goes also) who were engaged with Russian
ground troops. (I swear, I broke the 100 yard dash world record when a MIG
decided that I and several others were a good target when caught in a small
open field stupidly diving under a single scrawny tree in the middle of the
field.) After Nov 9, I have not seen formal military engagements where I
was (near Zirc in the mountains) only scattered small groups of mixed
civilians and some uniformed personnel. On Nov 14, near Csorna, Hungarian
green AVH (border guard units) were shooting albeit mainly over the head of
some of the people (presumably trying to escape from Hungary) in TEFU
trucks. (That much for the oft cited "drafted" mentality). Yes, there were
drafted folks in 56 in both the blue and green AVH, but there were also the
hard core sadists mainly in the blue AVH. I knew a fellow who was a drafted
blue in 56 and his brother was executed in 57 for supposed "spying". But I
also have seen an ambulance load of AVH who were trying to get to the radio
station on the eve of Oct 23. (Which was also stupid, because the back end
of the radio complex was not under any serious attack at the time.)

There were already in the Nov 6-7 timeframe AVH units being reorganized at
the Fo street AVH complex. They showed up mainly in civilan clothing and
and got dressed in paratrooper jump suits and sundry other non AVH
uniforms. (Apparently, they did not have full faith yet in a speedy
Russian victory.) An additional caution to those who may not be aware of
the position and ranks of some of the casualties on the communist side. It
often happened that AVH personnel were shown in non AVH positions and were
often promoted post facto. As an example, those captured alive at the Radio
had all ranks and some even uniforms removed prior to surrender.
Apparently those good folks did not seem to be proud of their combat
stripes. I remember one particular character who in complete civvies tried
to conmingle with the revolutionaries several times in the early
disorganization after the surrender. While those who died in the fighting
all had full uniforms, including the ones who were obviously first treated
for wounds and were taken to the coal storage basement of the radio on
strechers and died later.

Regards,Jeliko.

> Among the reasons why the Hungarian army offered no organized resistance:
> the presence of Soviet "advisors" in all major units of the army; Soviet
> control of all command, control, and communications; Soviet control of
> all planning in the General Staff; and lack of any plans for defending
the
> country against an attack from the East.  In addition, the Hungarian
> military chain of command was decapitated a few hours before the attack
> when Minister of Defense General Maleter was arrested by the Soviets at
> the Tokol airport, along with the Army Chief of Staff, General Kovacs.

> Even under these conditions, the army did resist, if we can believe the
> reports of General Zhukov published in the Yeltsin Files.  The reports
> show a meticulous effort to paralyze the Hungarian army by disabling its
> communications and supply infrastructure.  It is certainly possible that
> Zhukov had his own reasons for exaggerating the level of resistance --
> but his reports do mention significant resistance by scattered army
units:

> Excerpt from Zhukov's Nov 4, 12:00 report (Moscow time):

>   ... Soviet army units have occupied the most important communications
>   centers, including the long-range radio transmission facilities in
>   Szolnok, all weapons and ammunition storage dumps, and other important
>   military facilities... in Budapest the troops took over the Parliament
>   building, the MDP KV building, the radio transmitter near the
Parliament
>   building... three of the Danube bridges, and a weapons and ammunition
>   dump... the main bases of the Hungarian army have been surrounded.
Many
>   units laid down their arms without resistance... our forces are under
>   orders to restore the commands of officers removed by the rebels, and
>   arrest the ones appointed by the rebels in their place... our troops
>   have occupied all Hungarian airports...

> Zhukov's Nov 5, 9:00 report:

>   By the morning of Nov 5 we have disarmed the staff and command units of
>   two infantry corps, and the units of five infantry divisions, two
>   armored divisions, and five anti-aircraft artillery divisions, two
>   tank regiments, three anti-tank regiments, and training facilities ...
>   Our forces are in control of the entire Hungarian air force ...  In
>   Budapest the rebels and the scattered Hungarian military units fighting
>   on their side are offering desperate resistance...

> Zhukov's Nov 8, 9:00 report:

>   In Dunapentele, 50 kilometers from Budapest, our forces have broken
>   the resistance of a Hungarian air defense artillery brigade and the
>   rebel groups supporting them...

> The "radio transmitter near the Parliament building" exists only in
Zhukov's
> imagination.  The same may be true about the rest of the divisions and
> brigades in the report.  Zhukov may be lying and/or stretching the truth
> here and there, but it seems quite likely that a few isolated army units
> did resist in spite of the odds.

> -----
> Gabor Fencsik
> 

At 10:48 AM 6/4/96 +0200, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:

>        Eva Balogh comments:
>> Therefore, if that Revai girl is a direct decendent of Jozsef Revai, she
>            ^^^^
>> must be, at best, only Jozsef Revai's grandchild. Kind of remote, don't you
>> think? She may not have been born yet when Revai was already dead.
>
>        There is no ..."if"... , Madam, it is fact. I personally know the
>physicist father-in-law of Mayor Demszky. Remote? ... perhaps...

        My first question concerning the above is: why are you so
antagonistic? My "if" had nothing to do withy your honesty or reliability.
It referred to "direct" as opposed to "lateral" relationship. Because, after
all, Demszky's wife, nee Revai, may be not Jozsef Revai's direct descendent
but, let's say, his brother's granddaughter or his cousin's granddaughter.
>From your original posting the relationship between the two wasn't clear.

>        But EB elaborates (again?) on the irrelevant (even if factual)
>part.

        If "irrelevant" why mention it. It only weakens your case because I
bet most of your readers will not find it terribly significant that Demszky
married a Revai girl. After all, that fact doesn't make Gabor Demszky a
Stalinist communist a la Jozsef Revai.

>May I cite the part I consider important (after all my text
>might be emphasized and interpreted  better by me):
>
>>> That is: communist internationalism - converted into capitalist but
>>> remaining internationalist - openly wants to force again the nation
>>> to mourn on the birth anniversary of Hungary. It is a simple and
>>> intentional slap to Hungarians. Thus it is political, ... and not only
>>> statement, but action...

        I have been living on the North American continent for forty years
and I think I know educated public opinion in this country and Canada pretty
well. I am really trying to help you when I am saying that the above
wouldn't float around here. You, as the Hungary-based liaison for the
*Hungarian Lobby,* must realize that most people's reaction would be
negative. Their first reaction would be that the Hungarian national camp is
simply paranoid. Whether they are right or wrong doesn't really matter, the
result would be the same. Nobody would take you seriously. You may not like
this, but this is how I see it.

>        Furthermore, EB writes:
>> What I mean is that Gabor Demszky would be a stupid idiot {snip}
>>         Eva Balogh
>
>        Maybe...;-), what I think is that he is simply very arrogant...
>He does not care. This 72% collective parlamentary dictatorship starts to
>loose any sense of soberness...

        So, these communist, capitalist, cosmopolitan leadership wants to
force the Hungarian nation to mourn on this proud anniversary. I am sorry, I
can't buy it. There are two possibilities. (1) Some stupid idiot, who has no
sense whatsoever came up with the ridiculous idea of including Mozart's
Requiem into the program and it slipped through; (2) there is always the
possibility, given the reliability of Hungarian papers, that the whole thing
is not even true.

>        Gabor D. Farkas asks:
>> Is kadargyorgy suggesting that in a democracy people should be
>> judged by their in-laws?
>
>        No... , Sir. I do not know how "... people should be judged..."
>God will know... I was citing facts about a very arrogant action of the
>Mayor of Budapest. And I added some background information, which might
>give explanation to his arrogance.

        I don't know whether Demszky is arrogant or not but he seems to be
very popular. Always second or third in the opinion polls among politicians,
with well over 70 percent approval rate. He was easily reelected at the last
municipal elections. I read a couple of interviews with him in the New York
Times and I found him sympathetic.

>        And now this duel seems a little bit long for me. I return to this
>topics only if really important new point or personal attack arises...

        There is no personal attack here. In fact, if anything, I am trying
to help you in your quest of lobbying in these parts. I am sure that my
opinion on this matter is not unique. I would say the large majority of the
people who were either born on this continent or who have been living here
for a considerable amount of time will agree with me that this is not an
effective way to convince public opinion around here.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Colleagues,

Today is the 76th anniversary of Trianon. I have written the attached essay
last year for the 75th anniversary, for the Washington Post-Los Angeles Times
Newswire. At that time we did not have a Hungarian Lobby, so Joska Balogh
attached some maps, printed it, and Odon Sandor mailed it out (at his own
expense) to American and
European leaders, including all members of both houses of the USA Congress.

Laszlo Tokes wrote that the the world-wide distribution of this English
language essay is essential for a better understanding of the Hungarian
problem. I was also told that Richard Hoolbroke got a copy of this text from
his wife, Kati Marton, and as a result, now understands the problems of
Central Europe a little better. One never knows which little seed will
germinate in what soil, so I am distributing this essay again, hoping that
you will do what you can to distribute it.

If you would like to get a copy of the printed version, which is provided
with art and maps, Odon Sandor (POB 750068, Forest Hills, NY 11375-0068)
still has a few copies.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

	The Lessons Of A 75 Year Old Tragedy
The 4th of June was the 75th anniversary of the Treaty of Trianon, the peace
treaty which in 1920 mutilated and dismembered an ancient European nation:
the kingdom of Hungary. At Trianon Hungary was deprived 63.6% of her
inhabitants and 71.5% of her territory. This essay has three parts. I will
first discuss the history of Hungary through the end of World War One,
culminating in the Treaty. Next I will outline the Treaty, its architects,
goals and consequences. I then will discuss Hungary's  guilt  and the events
of the last 75 years to show, that just as Nazism was not born in Germany but
in Versailles, so the tragedy of Bosnia and the evolving tragedy of the
Balkans (some of it yet to occur) can all be traced back to Trianon. I
conclude by outlining a concept which would reconstitute the Danubian Basin
and could stabilize the whole of Central Europe.
	Pre-Trianon Hungary
For a thousand years, Hungary occupied an oval shaped central plane
surrounded by the protective bulwark of the Carpathian mountains. Like the
crust on a loaf of bread, the mountains encased the lowlands in a majestic
arch from which all waterways converge toward the center. This perfect
geographic unity was matched by complete self-sufficiency, until this
harmonious symbiosis of the great central plain and its surrounding mountains
was destroyed in Trianon.
       For a millennium, Hungary was the eastern bastion of European
civilization, a balancing and stabilizing power between Slavic and Germanic
nations. Hungary's first king, Saint Stephen, wrote to his son, Saint Emeric,
in 1036:  Make the strangers welcome in this land, let them keep their
languages and customs, for weak and fragile is the realm which is based on a
single language or on a single set of customs (unius linguae uniusque moris
regnum imbecille et fragile est.)  Stephen's advice was respected and obeyed
during the coming centuries: Hungary gave asylum to the Ruthenians in the
north, the Wallachians (Romanians) and Saxons in the east, the Swabians and
Serbs in the south. Eventually the kingdom contained 14 national minorities,
of which the Magyars were only one, and in order not to hurt the feelings of
any, Latin remained the sole official language of the kingdom until 1844.
      Hungary became a constitutional monarchy in 1222; her  Golden Bull  is
junior by only 5 years to the English  Magna Carta.  This constitutional
monarchy was almost completely annihilated by the Mongol invasion of 1240-41,
but through that enormous struggle it succeeded in protecting Europe and her
civilization. Toward the end of the XVth century, during the realm of the
renaissance king Matthias Corvinus, Hungary's population reached that of
England, the court in Buda became a cultural centers of Europe, and the
library of Buda was Europe's finest. In 1526 Hungary was once again
annihilated, this time by the Turkish invasion, which cut her population in
half and the kingdom in three. During the 150 years of Ottoman occupation,
the west was taken by Austria, the center by the Ottoman invaders and
Hungarian culture survived only in the east, in Transylvania.
      Even today, Transylvania is the land where the purest Hungarian is
spoken, where Hungarian popular art has found its most exalted, most perfect
expression, and where Béla Bartók collected his Hungarian folk tunes.
Transylvania is also the place where the Hungarian diet at Torda, in 1557,
declared the freedom of religion for the first time anywhere in the world.
Transylvania provided an atmosphere of religious and ethnic toler ance and as
such became the birthplace of the Unitarian and Sabbatarian religions.
      After the Turkish occupation, Austria attempted to take over all of
Hungary. This resulted in a series of uprisings. The fight for Hungarian
independence of 1703-1711 was led by Francis II Rákóczy whose insurgent
fighters were mostly Slovak and Ruthenian peasants. They proudly declared
themselves to be  Hungarians,  as distinct from the racial term  Magyar.  The
next fight for national independence was led by Louis Kossuth in 1848, and
the Ruthenian and Slovak nationalities once more contributed masses of
recruits for the Hungarian revolutionary army, which, while defeated by the
combined forces of Austria and Russia, forced the Hapsburgs to accept in 1867
the formation of an Austro-Hungarian duality. It was Kossuth who later
proposed to convert the Austro- Hungarian empire (of 24 million Slavs, 12
million Germans and 12 million Hungarians at the time) into a Danubian
Confederation. Kossuth was also the second foreigner ever invited to address
the United States Congress in January, 1852.
	From Sarajevo to Trianon     
At the beginning of this century, Russia sponsored pan-slavic agitation in
the region. Archduke Francis Ferdinand was the main opponent of the creation
of a Greater Serbia. His murder on June 28, 1914 in Sarajevo had been
encouraged by Russia and engineered by Serbia. The only member of the Council
of Ministers of the Dual Monarchy who was opposed to a war of retaliation
against Serbia was the Hungarian Premier, Count Stephen Tisza. When he was
voted down, Hungary occupied Serbia and by 1915 would have considered the war
over, if Russia did not have scores to settle with the Ottoman empire, France
with Germany, Italy with Austria, and so forth. Therefore the war went on.
      During the war, the Czech allies of Serbia, Eduard Benes and Thomas
Masaryk, transformed themselves from consultants of the allies into
architects of allied policy for Central Europe. They organized a deceitful
propaganda campaign for the dismemberment of Hungary and in their efforts
succeeded in obtaining the support of two criminally ignorant French
politicians, Georges Clémenceau and Raymond Pointcaré.
      President Wilson refused to cooperate in this conspiracy. He wanted
Europe's new borders to correspond with her ethnographic boundaries and he
wanted the principle of self-determination to prevail, but his views were
disregarded. On January 24, 1919, he protested the illegal Serb and Romanian
occupation of parts of Hungary and on March 31, 1919, he called the proposed
dismemberment of Hungary  absurd,  but his objections were overruled by the
French. As a result, the United States Congress refused to approve the Treaty
of Trianon, but this product of Neronian insanity, this plan, unjust in
substance and tragic in consequence, was implemented anyway.
	The Treaty of Trianon
On the 4th of June, 1920, one of the cruelest treaties of human history was
signed. Never before had a peace, imposed by violence, been more brutal in
its bias, madder in its destructiveness, more forgetful of the lessons of
history and better calculated to create future upheavals. The treaty cut
mercilessly into the flesh of compact Hungarian populations. Hundreds of
towns were separated from their suburbs; villages were split in two;
communities were deprived of their parish churches or cemeteries; townships
were cut off from their railroad stations and their water supplies. A
1000-year-old European country was made into an invalid as its territory was
reduced from 325,000 to 
93,000 square kilometers. In the process, 35% of all Hungarians were turned
into foreign ers within the towns built by their fathers, as the borders were
redrawn around them. In this way, the Hungarians became Europe's largest
minority as Hungary's territory was reduced by 71.3%. In comparison, the
leader of the central powers: Germany lost only 9.5% of its territory. The
outrage of this mockery of justice is illustrated by the fact that even
Austria lined up at the carcass and received some parts of the dismembered
Hungarian Kingdom.  
      From the fragments of Hungary, the unnatural successor states of
Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and greater Romania were created. These artificial
entities forced Croats to live with Serbs and Czechs to live with Slovaks,
demonstrating both the arrogance and the ignorance of Trianon's architects.
These successor states were not only geographic monstrosities but also
economic absurdities and therefore their self-destruction was just a matter
of time. As of this writing two of the three successor states have already
disintegrated. One of the purposes of this writing is to suggest a plan to
construct a healthy federation from the disintegrated pieces and to achieve
that transformation without violence.
	Self-Determination Through Plebiscites 
The very foundation of the 14 Wilsonian Principles was that people have an
unalien able right to determine their own destiny. Yet at Trianon the
application of self- determination and the use of plebiscites in drawing the
new borders was totally disregarded. When the recommendations of one of the
delegates to the Peace Conference, those of Field Marshall Ian Smith, to hold
plebiscites in Transylvania, Slovakia, Ruthenia, Croatia and Slavonia were
rejected, he was correct in declaring:  A plebiscite refused is a plebiscite
taken.  By not allowing plebiscites, the dismemberment of the
Austro-Hungarian empire and the redistribution of her 48 million citizens
resulted in the creation of 16 million oppressed ethnic minorities. These
were not emigrants who voluntarily left their  old country,  but people who
never in their life moved from their home towns and became foreigners, just
because Clémenceau and Benes decided to redraw the borders around them. 
      When the Wends and Slovenes of the Muraköz protested their separation
from Hungary, when the Ruthenians expressed their desire to remain part of
the kingdom which they shared for a thousand years, when the Swabians of the
Banat protested their annexation into Romania and Yugoslavia (Vojvodina), the
answer of Clémenceau was always the same: no, no and no. There was only one
exception to the arbitrary drawing of the new borders (mostly by Eduard
Benes), there was only a single case where President Wilson's principle of
self-determination prevailed: It was in the case of the city of Sopron, which
was allowed to hold a plebiscite and voted by a majority of 65% to remain
part of Hungary and not to join Austria.
	The  Guilt  Of Hungary  
Hungary was dismembered because she could not defend herself and because her
greedy neighbors decided to help themselves to the unprotected carcass.
Naturally, the architects of Trianon could not admit this and therefore
invented the theory of  Hun gary's Guilt,  claiming that 1) She started the
First World War and 2) She was a historical German ally and as such a
destabilizing force in Europe. Neither were true.
      It was the Serb para-governmental organization, Narodna Obrana, which,
with the 
encouragement of Russia and with the goal of a Greater Serbia, assassinated
Archduke Francis Ferdinand in 1914 and it was the Premier of Hungary, who
alone in the Austro- Hungarian Council of Ministers, voted against a war of
retaliation against Serbia.
      As to the claim of being a  natural  German ally, history proves just
the opposite. Whenever Hungary was independent, she acted as a keystone of
balance between the Germanic and Slavic peoples and prevented attempts at
both Pan-Germanic and Pan- Slavic expansions. In the first 500 years of her
existence, starting with the battle of Lechfeld in 955, Hungary fought to
block the spread of German influence and created stability by filling the
power vacuum of the region. When under Germanic (Austrian) occupation between
1688 and 1867, she twice rose against the Germans and eventually gained her
independence from them. 
	Tacitus:  We Hate Whom We Hurt 
In any society, the acid test of civilization is the respect for minority
rights. The Great Powers attempted to guarantee these rights by making the
successor states sign  minority treaties,  which outlined the language,
religious, cultural and property rights of the minorities. For example, the
minority treaty signed with Romania on the 9th of December, 1919 in Paris, a
treaty guaranteed by the United States, Britain, France, Italy and Japan,
stated the following:
         Article 8:  No restriction shall be imposed on the free use of any
language. 
         Article 9:  Equal rights to establish, manage and control religious
institutions, schools and other educational establishments. 
         In Article 11:  Roumania agrees to accord to the communities of the
Szecklers (Hungarian Székelys) and Saxons in Transylvania local autonomy in
regard to scholastic and religious matters.  
         Article 12:  Roumania agrees that the stipulations in the foregoing
Articles, constitute obligations of international concern.  
         Similar treaties were signed with the other successor states, but
none were ever enforced. In fact, the Great Powers looked the other way while
the successor states attempted to  solve  their minority problems, first
through denationalization, then by ethnic cleansing through deportations,
expulsions, transfers, dispersions and other forms of uprooting. Hungarians
had to choose between their nationality and their property. Because of the
savage oppression, intimidation and coercion, 350,000 Hungarians decided to
leave all their possessions behind and flee to rump Hungary.
      The institutions and possessions of Hungarian communities were also
targeted. In Transylvania alone, the Hungarian community lost 1,665 of her
schools, including the world famous János Bolyai University, named after
Einstein's predecessor, the inventor of the new (non-Euclidean) geometry. 
	The Paris Peace Treaty
On February 10, 1947, the Great Powers had another opportunity to enforce the
until- then-disregarded minority treaties. This was expected because on
August 14, 1941, the Atlantic Charter was signed, and it too (like the
earlier Wilsonian principles) empha sized the right to self-determination and
to plebiscites. Yet, not a single plebiscite was allowed. In fact, rump
Hungary was further violated by the transfer of additional land to Slovakia.
This transfer, later, made possible the construction which unilaterally and
illegally transferred the Danube, Hungary's border river, onto Slovak
territory (in 1992) and to build a hydroelectric dam, thereby destroying
Europe's oldest wetland region.
      At the end of the Second World War, the worst crime of legalistic
hypocrisy occurred: Eduard Benes, with the scandalous connivance of the
Western Allies, invented the concept of  collective responsibility  and used
it to confiscate the properties of the Hungarian minorities in Slovakia and
later, to deport them in cattle cars. To understand the hypocrisy of this
deed, one must realize that wartime Slovakia under Tiso was a protectorate of
Nazi Germany, while it was the representative of the Hungarian minority in
the Slovak parliament, János Esterházy, who cast the only dissenting vote
against the Jewish laws, which were passed by that body. Yet, after the war,
Esterházy died in Czechoslovakian jail and the Hungarian minorities he
represented were collectively sentenced as war criminals. Thereby, when the
deported Jewish Hungarians returned from the death camps, they found their
properties confiscated, because of their  collective responsibility.   
	The Last Decades
By the late 1940s, the last protection left to the Catholic Hungarian
minorities were their churches. In 1948, 600 Hungarian Catholic priests and
all six of their bishops were arrested in Transylvania. Rome later agreed to
gerrymander the Catholic sees and to appoint Romanian bishops to lead the
all-Hungarian church, as the Romanians belong to the Eastern Orthodox faith.
The fate of the Hungarian Catholics in the other successor states was
similar. In 1949, in Ruthenia, the bishop of the 500,000 Catholics was
murdered and the parishioners were forced to merge into the Orthodox Chrurch.
In Slovakia, in April, 1950, the bishop of 320,000 Catholics was arrested and
his parishioners were also forced into the Orthodox Church.
       After 1956, when the Hungarian Freedom Fighters of Budapest succeeded
in mortally wounding the Goliath of Communism, the rulers of the successor
states used the uprising as a pretext to speed the forced assimilation of
their Hungarian minorities. It was after the Revolution that the remaining
autonomous Hungarian regions: Transylvania in Romania and Vojvodina in
Yugoslavia were abolished. Today, the more than 3 million Hungarians have no
autonomy at all, although it had been guaranteed by the Great Powers in 1920,
again in 1946 and once more by the European Parliament in 1993, in Article 11
of Recommendation 1201. 
       After 1989, there was a short period of hope, when for example the
Hungarian bishop, László T kés, was temporarily heralded as an all-Romanian
national hero, for leading the successful revolution against Ceaucescu, or
when Miklós Duray, the Hungarian leader of Charter 77, was released from jail
in Slovakia. Unfortunately, this did not last. By 1991, the formerly
Communist leaders of the successor states (Milosevic in Yugoslavia, Iliescu
in Romania, Mechiar in Slovakia) once again started to use nationalistic and
anti-Hungarian propaganda to distract public attention from the pressing
economic problems of their nations.
       In September, 1995, for the first time ever, Hungarian students who
speak no other language but Hungarian, will not be allowed to be taught in
their mother's tongue by their Hungarian teachers, in their Hungarian
schools. In addition to this cultural genocide taking place in Romania and
Slovakia, Serbia and Croatia are fighting over the posession of Hungarian
villages in Eastern Slavonia, which has been part of Hungary for 1000 years.
Yet, the worst of all tragedies is occuring in Vojvodina, where the Serb
refugies from Krajina are  ehnically cleansing  the native Hungarian
population, which had nothing to do with the fighting in Bosnia.
       One wonders if there is a limit to the patience of this, the largest
minority in Europe, and what will happen when that limit is reached?
	The Lesson 
It takes time for historic events to reveal their consequences. It took
nearly 75 years for the creations of Trianon, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia,
to selfdestruct. It took some 75 years until it became clear that it is the
legacy of Trianon which is destabilizing and  balkanizing  Central Europe. By
now we see that Trianon did not eliminate the causes of the 1914 murder in
Sarajevo and we also realize that no unjust  solution  can stand the erosion
of time, and Trianon did not provide justice. 
      But what is justice? In this relativistic age, - when my terrorist can
be your freedom fighter, when the life of one UN soldier can be more valuable
than that of a thousand Bosnian children, and when the Chechen or the Kurd
nations are less deserving of self- determination than some others, - it is
desirable to remind ourselves of what justice is. On the pulpit of the
Notre-Dame Cathedral, Father R. P. Gratry has put it this way:  Every
nation's homeland is sacred. If you destroy one of them, you mutilate the
entire human race. 
      Therefore, the main mistake of 1920 was that it attempted to satisfy
the desires of a Benes and a Clémenceau, instead of attempting to apply just
principles to solve the nationality problems of Central Europe.
Unfortunately, this approach has not changed during the last 75 years. The
only thing that changed are the names of the architects of injustice. Today,
the goal of international efforts is to appease a Milosevic and a Yeltsin,
instead of establishing some general principles and applying them to
everybody. The principles of a permanent solution, must involve
self-determination through plebiscites, autonomy for ethnic minorities and a
Danubian or Central European Federation as the ultimate goal.
      The United Nations should declare that all national minorities anywhere
in the world (exceeding some minimum number, say 100,000) have the right to
hold UN supervised plebiscites and receive cultural and linguistic autonomy,
if the majority so desires. It should make no difference how these minorities
evolved, how long they lived in the particular area, or what their language
or religion is. Regardless of all that, they all have the right to maintain
their heritage and the right to determine their own cultural destiny. Once
cultural autonomy is guaranteed, the main cause of tensions between Central
European neighbors will also diminish.
      When the Hungarians enjoy the same autonomy in Romania as the Romanian
minorities in Hungary, when the Serb, Russian, Turkish, Albanian, German, or
any other minorities of the region, are also treated equally, the tensions
will disappear and the rebuilding can start.
	The Danubian Confederation
It is the wrong goal for the Danubian nations to rush into NATO or the
European Community individually. A much better first goal is the
establishment of an economically self-sufficient, politically stable,
militarily neutral and geographically large enough federation, which by
itself is able to fill the power vacuum of the region.
      It should by now be obvious, that neither Western Europe, nor the UN
can fill the present power vacuum in Central Europe and therefore they are
not competent to resolve the problems of the region. History teaches us, that
the Balkans became unstable whenever a power vacuum evolved in the Carpathian
Basin. The wise learn from history, instead of repeating it's errors. We
should learn from history, that the tragedy of Trianon will not be corrected
and justice and stability will not be obtained, by maintaining the status
quo. What is needed, once the minority problems are solved through autonomy,
is to build a strong Danubian Federation, one that can be crystallized around
the nucleus of Hungary, Slovakia, Ruthenia, Slovenia and Croatia, a
Federation that later could expand to include Romania, Yugoslavia or even
Poland, the Czech Republic and Austria.
      History does not solve problems accidentally. Those who want a better
future must first have a plan, a concept of that future. For the stability
and prosperity of Central Europe, that plan should start with autonomy for
all the minorities and should end with a voluntary federation. It would be
fitting if on the 75th anniversary of the dismemberment of the Hungarian
Kingdom, after the unnecessary and undeserved suffering of three generations
of innocent ethnic minorities, we would start the process of rebuilding, not
a nation state, but the Federation of Central Europe. 

Bela Liptak

GDF wrote refering to Demszky's marriage with Revai's (grand)daughter:

>I didn't.  Is kadargyorgy suggesting that in a democracy people should be
>judged by their in-laws? Or that he cannot imagine two people meeting,
>falling in love and marrying? The only way of doing it is by "marrying in"?

so, let's say if Rabin's son married with Mengele's grand-daughter it would
not be odd, just about fine and the peoples in Israel should or would not be
surprised or confused. Also if Mr.Dole's son and Mr.Himmler's grand-daughter
have the same affair that would be all right, nobody would care with it in the
US, nobody would try to use it against Dole and generally it would not affect
his career as politician or presidental candidate. Hmmm, interesting!

JZs

Well, I have seen stranger things than this but not many.

If it is true, that someone scheduled a requiem (by anybody) for the 1100
year anniversary celebration, it is plain stupid. While I can understand
that they would not use the Battle Hymn of the Republic due to its
somewhat non literal Hungarian wording, something a little more celebratory
and historically appropriate musical program would suffice.

Possible recommendations:

"Don't worry, Be happy"
(just to reinforce current government advise)

a sequence of the Mongolian, Turkish, Habsburg, Russian and Soviet anthems
(this maybe appropriate introduction to the requiem)

"Tul az Operencian"
(just to show where to be happy)

"Inernationale"
(Oops, this could be dangerous, somebody may abide the words)

and so on.......

Regards,Jeliko

A szuleim 1968ban Svajc emigraltak, es en mar itt Zurichben szulettem es
itt nottem fel. Megis beszelek (es irok/olvasok) magyarul, nem
tokeletesen, de nem is rosszul.

Erdekelne "magyar Magyarokkal" az Internet/Email uj lehetosegei
segitsegevel iro kapcsolatot kotni. Ha valaki szeretne irni, az en cimem:


Udv, Dobozi Balint

At 10:26 AM 6/4/96 +1000, George Antony wrote, quoting me:

>> I do know that most of the recruits were sent home. If
>> the army had not remained neutral but supported the revolution things might
>> have turned out differently.
>I fear only in that the number of casualties would have been much higher.

        Rereading this above sentence, I realize that it is misleading.
"Thing might have turned out differently"--I didn't really mean a victorious
outcome but rather it would have ended up in a more warlike conflict between
Soviet troops on the one side and the Hungarian army on the other side.


>The Soviet leaders were determined to keep Hungary in the fold,

        Opinion on this is divided. Some people claim that there was a few
days when the Soviet leadership (or part of it) was ready to throw in the towel
.

>And I think that after a bloodier re-
>conquest the Soviets would have given much less freedom to any Hungarian
>leader to set internal policies than they gave Kadar.

        I think that George is right.

        Eva Balogh

>
>George Antony
>
>

At 12:44 AM 6/3/96 EST, you wrote:
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Issue____________: *** HUNGARY 687 ***
>Date_____________: Mon Jun  3 00:44:03 EDT 1996
>Publisher________: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
>Disclaimer_______: Authors bear full responsibility for their articles.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Tartalomjegyzek:
>----------------
>
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: *** MOZAIK *** #760 (fwd) ( 28 sor )
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: *** MOZAIK *** #760 (fwd) ( 28 sor )
>Idopont: Sun Jun  2 01:06:20 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #687
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>For those of you who do not get the MOZAIK - here is an item of interest.
>
>Martha
>============================
>
>Friday, May 31, 1996 Volume 1, Issue 359
>
>REGIONAL NEWS
>-------------
>
>> ---------------------------------------------
>TRANSYLVANIAN MAYOR WARNS OF HUNGARIAN MENACE
>> ---------------------------------------------
>
>Nationalist Transylvanian mayor Gheorghe Funar on Thursday led a rally
>through his town warning Romanian supporters they faced being
>overwhelmed by ethnic Hungarians if they did not vote for him on
>Sunday.  At the same time Funar launched multi-million dollar suits for
>libel and defamation against leading newspapers, cheerfully saying he
>would spend the money on city amenities. Funar, notorious for his
>ability to antagonise Romania's 1.6 million-strong Hungarian minority,
>is a certainty to be reelected in Sunday's local elections though most
>attention is on Bucharest where tennis star Ilie Nastase is running for
>mayor. Despite his nationalist tendencies Funar is likely to be
>re-elected because Cluj is probably the cleanest and best organised
>city in Romania, though its Hungarian monuments and sites are
>conspicuously less well cared for than Funar's massive new monuments to
>Romanian national heroes.
>
>
>=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
=
>=* TIPP GURU MOKA VITA SPORT DOSZ ||                                         *
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>=* HIR MOZAIK SZALON RANDI OTTHON ||    Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/   *
=
>=* NARANCS HUNGARY KORNYESZ FORUM ||                                         *
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>=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
=
>=* Helpfile:    >          ||   WWW:     http://hix.mit.edu/    *
=
>=* Human touch: >    ||   Finger:         *
=
>=* ------------------------------------------------------------------------- *
=
>=* Hollosi Jozsi. /HIX/  (personal mail only: >)             *
=
>=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
=
>
>
>

At 05:55 PM 6/3/96 PDT, Jeliko wrote:

>I have had the chance to fight both the AVH (and most of those who were
>involved at the Magyar Radio were NOT drafted kiskatonak but regular run of
>the mill AVH) and the Russians when they showed up on the Muzeum korut. I
>have not felt that at that point I was at the knife edge of turning from a
>revolutionary to a freedom fighter. As a matter of fact the Russians did not
>much bother us when they arrived, which was only shortly after the residual
>AVH surrenederd.
>When you are in a fire fight, you do not hear anything further away then the
>firing in your immediate vicinity. At times throughout the night of the 23d
>of October, I was expecting a massive reinforcement (either Hungarian
>government or Russian) to show up and finish us off.

        I wasn't at the Radio because I happened to stay to the bitter end
in front of the parliament. The ELTE students were scattered around because
of the immense pressure of the crowd and thus only a few hundred of us
managed to leave the square in some semblance of formation. As we were
getting close to Vaci utca a motorcyclist came from the other direction and
yelled: there is fighting going on at the Radio station. We didn't believe
him but by the time I got home (Muzeum korut and Rakoczi Street corner) I
myself could hear the sounds of shots. I remember my utter dismay.

        We were up all night. Some of us were watching what was happening on
Muzeum korut. Our building was the first building on Rakoczi Street--there
was a grassy empty area between us and the road (the building was destroyed
in World War II) and through a wide glass wall we could see what was going
on outside in both directions. All through the night young armed men were
coming and going between our corner and the Radio building. Meanwhile we
heard on Radio Free Europe that the Russian troops had left their barracks
somewhere in Transdanubia and one could expect them to arrive around 5 in
the morning. They were very punctual. Or, rather, Radio Free Europe's
information was very accurate. In any case, as opposed to Jeliko, I remember
the Russian tanks being quite active. Admittedly, their tanks and mounted
guns were pretty useless against the armed civilians who were lying on the
ground on that empty lot because they were too close, but by then scattered
gunfire came from rooftops along Rakoczi Street and the Soviet tanks began
their systematic firing lasting for at least a day. All the windows facing
Rakoczi Street were blown out and we had several direct hits. From the
outside the damage didn't look serious: fairly small holes on the side of
the building but most of the ammunition exploded a few second later when
already inside. Wall after wall just crumbled, the whole second floor facing
Rakoczi Street was uninhabitable. Prior to the Russian attack we emptied all
the rooms facing Rakoczi Street, dragged out the mattresses and placed them
along two sides of the corridors most protected (butting on 7 Rakoczi
Street). The whole building was shaking and the noise was earshattering. As
far as I remember that went on until Thursday morning.

>Just an interesting sidelight is that someone who knew me already
>reported to my boss (in a part time job) that I was seen with a gun in my
>hand near the radio station, before I had a chance firing the first bullet.
>Anyway, I would have been the least surprised if I was caught and shot on
>site.

        Those people were anywhere. When I arrived in the dormitory around
10 p.m. and heard the horrible news of armed conflict, I began to climb up
the stairs quite upset when a fellow student yelled down: you will pay for
this! (You can imagine where I sent her!) She had high AVH connections and
the day before some of us were going from room to room to urge people to
join the demonstration the next day. If I recall she was the only one who
gave us any trouble.

>There were soldiers involved in the fighting but not the orgaized Hungarian
>Army. As a matter of fact, I talked a folyamor (Riverine force) out of his
>gun at the middle of the intersection of Rakoczi ut and Kiskorut. It did not
>take much convincing, but apparently he felt more comfortable to give his gun
>away than to join the fight in either side.

        Friends who were at the Radio station told me that soldiers who
arrived in a truck actually gave their arms to the students and workers.


>They were also
>revolutionaries, even if they never held a gun in their hands.
>

        Very few women were actually fighting gun in hand. One former
roommate of mine (working-class parents) didn't show up for days (and I must
admit there was such confusion that I didn't even miss her) and when she
did, it turned out that she fought gun in hand with a civilian group.

        Eva Balogh

Thanks to George Antony and Gabor Fencsik for details on the state
of the Hungarian army. The only thing I have ever read on events concerning
army affairs Peter Gosztonyi's memoirs ("Emlekeim a Kilian-laktanyarol,"
*1956 Evkonyv, 1993.*) which are fascinating. I highly recommend it. If you
have difficulty finding the article, just drop me a line. I will be glad to
copy it for you.

        Eva Balogh

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Now, if George Antony can come up with a dictionary definition of
>'revolution' that mentions Hungary 1956 I'll call this dicta duel a draw.
=
>=20
>
>

Joe, have you changed your software? What's with all the wierd symbols and
clumsy line breaks?
Sam Stowe

* Actor Dennis Quaid reportedly told the New York Times recently, that
  "The only thing worse than making a movie in Slovakia is having a day
  off in Slovakia."
    - Quaid filmed his recently released "Dragonheart" in Slovakia.

as quoted on the daily news briefs by 
http://www.tiac.net/users/incinc/
(c) 1996 Intelligent Network Concepts, Inc.
> =======================================================
p.s.  If anyone is interested in subscription, here is how:

To subscribe
    send email to  with the SUBJECT "subscribe db"

Joe Szalai wrote:

>  Also, I think that George Antony is referring me to a
> dictionary because: a)he doesn't think that I can understand complex issues,

Which you have amply demonstrated in the past and once again demonstrate in
the following section.  That is, if one considers comprehending a paragraph of
dictionary defitions a complex issue, but at your level one obviously has to.

> or b)he can't.  When I look in the dictionary under 'rebellion', the events
> in Hungary of 1956 are mentioned.  Interestingly, no mention of Hungary is
> made when I look under 'revolution'.  But, as I said before, the Hungarian
> Revolution of 1956 will be remembered as such because that's what we call=
>  it.
>
> rebellion (r=EE-b=E8l=B4yen) noun
> 1.      Open, armed, and organized resistance to a constituted government.
> 2.      An act or a show of defiance toward an authority or established=
>  convention.
> [Middle English, from Old French, from Latin rebellio, rebellion-, from
> rebell=E2re, to rebel. See REBEL.]
> Synonyms: rebellion, revolution, revolt, mutiny, insurrection, uprising.
> These nouns denote acts of violence intended to change or overthrow an
> existing order or authority. Rebellion is open, armed, organized resistance
> to constituted political authority that often fails of its purpose: A
> rebellion in the officer corps led to chaos in the armed forces. A
> revolution is the overthrow of one government and its replacement with
> another: The 20th century has seen several major revolutions, which in turn
> have altered the balance of power among nations. Revolt is rejection of and
> rebellion against a prevailing state of affairs or a controlling authority:
> Fearing a taxpayers' revolt, the legislature passed a less confiscatory
> revenue bill. Mutiny is revolt against constituted authority, especially by
> sailors: The sailors, who had received low pay and poor rations, were
> finally in a state of mutiny. Insurrection and uprising apply to popular
> revolts that are sometimes limited or are viewed as being the first
> indications of a more extensive rebellion: The freedom fighters withdrew
> into the mountains, from which they mounted an insurrection against the
> junta. The 1956 uprising in Hungary was soon quelled by ruthless Soviet
> military action.

If you tried to read the text above with some effort, you would realize that
all that it says is that:

(1) rebellion is a synonym of revolution, revolt, mutiny, insurrection and
    uprising

(2) that the events of 1956 were an uprising, or a popular revolt.

In case you still do not see the point: it does NOT say that the events of
1956 were a rebellion.

So much about your 'proof'.  More important is the fact that definitions
of rebellion emphasize ORGANIZED action.  1956 was not an organized action,
it was a spontaneous popular action.  As for revolution, the key to the
meaning is the OVERTHROW of a regime (it's better not to burden you with the
etymology of the word), something that did happen in 1956.

George Antony

At 01:59 PM 6/4/96 -0400, JZs wrote:

>so, let's say if Rabin's son married with Mengele's grand-daughter it would
>not be odd, just about fine and the peoples in Israel should or would not be
>surprised or confused. Also if Mr.Dole's son and Mr.Himmler's grand-daughter
>have the same affair that would be all right, nobody would care with it in the
>US, nobody would try to use it against Dole and generally it would not affect
>his career as politician or presidental candidate. Hmmm, interesting!

I lost three of my four grandparents (the fourth one was lucky to die of a
heart-attack earlier), an uncle and an aunt  in Auschwitz, my mother went
through a death-march from Auschwitz to a Czech village. However, (although
I don't know her, maybe she doesn't even exist) I would not hold Mengele's
granddaughter responsible for her grandfather's deeds. It seems that the
population of Budapest agrees with this principle since they elected Demszky
mayor, despite his marriage.

Furthermore, to compare Revai with Mengele and Himmler is "ko:lto"i
tu'lza's" (finoman mondva).[poetic exageration (to be nice)].

Gabor D. Farkas

At 10:00 AM 6/5/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:

>So much about your 'proof'.  More important is the fact that definitions
>of rebellion emphasize ORGANIZED action.  1956 was not an organized action,
>it was a spontaneous popular action.  As for revolution, the key to the
>meaning is the OVERTHROW of a regime (it's better not to burden you with the
>etymology of the word), something that did happen in 1956.

Regimes are overthrown all the time.  Why are they not called revolutions?
What was so unique about the Hungarian Revolution that made it a revolution?
Overthrowing a regime for a couple of weeks does not sound like a revolution
to me.  It sounds like a failed popular uprising.

You know, I'm content to call the events of October/November 1956 the
Hungarian Revolution, because that's what it's called, but lets not get
sucked in by the mythology.  Nothing revolutionary happened in Hungary in '56.

Joe Szalai

HIRMONDO 7.068, 96/06/05  - the Hungarian - language Internet news
summary has just sent out this item:

While the mayoral race is still undecided in Bucharest, it is certain
that Marosvasarhely has elected Imre Fodor, a Hungarian, winning by more
than half the votes.

It also noted that the infamous head of the Romanian Nationalist Party,
Gheorghe Funar was reelected in Kolozsvar.  (Cluj)

Lectoris Salutem!

        Eva Balogh comments:
> Therefore, if that Revai girl is a direct decendent of Jozsef Revai, she
            ^^^^
> must be, at best, only Jozsef Revai's grandchild. Kind of remote, don't you
> think? She may not have been born yet when Revai was already dead.

        There is no ..."if"... , Madam, it is fact. I personally know the
physicist father-in-law of Mayor Demszky. Remote? ... perhaps...
        But EB elaborates (again?) on the irrelevant (even if factual)
part. May I cite the part I consider important (after all my text
might be emphasized and interpreted  better by me):

>> That is: communist internationalism - converted into capitalist but
>> remaining internationalist - openly wants to force again the nation
>> to mourn on the birth anniversary of Hungary. It is a simple and
>> intentional slap to Hungarians. Thus it is political, ... and not only
>> statement, but action...

        Furthermore, EB writes:
> What I mean is that Gabor Demszky would be a stupid idiot {snip}
>         Eva Balogh

        Maybe...;-), what I think is that he is simply very arrogant...
He does not care. This 72% collective parlamentary dictatorship starts to
loose any sense of soberness...

        Gabor D. Farkas asks:
> Is kadargyorgy suggesting that in a democracy people should be
> judged by their in-laws?

        No... , Sir. I do not know how "... people should be judged..."
God will know... I was citing facts about a very arrogant action of the
Mayor of Budapest. And I added some background information, which might
give explanation to his arrogance. My essential point (which is opinion,
not fact) was cited 16 lines earlier.
BTW, I have not seen any answer yet to the generous offer of the Union of
Hungarian Symphonic Orchstrae to Demszky (cited in my Friday posting).

> if ...{snip}..., then he can only be accused of stupidity,
> Gabor D. Farkas

        Maybe...  ;-)...GDF and EB seem to agree in their opinions ;-).
I am not so sure of this point ;-)
(Sorry, I could not resist... to interpret a little bit your own words)
If the smileys above are not enough for you, then please, Eva Balogh and
Gabor D. Farkas, take my apologies for the selective citation of your
texts...                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
        And now this duel seems a little bit long for me. I return to this
topics only if really important new point or personal attack arises...
        May God bless us all...                 kadargyorgy