Does anybody know any travel bureau (or Airline)  offering discount air
fair for two persons round trip to Hungary between May 16 and June 4 
either from Houston,TX or New York JFK to Budapest ?

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Janos Koplyay

Still no life Wally?

On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:

> Enike > wrote:
> |Oh, poor Wally.  You've spent so much time on this it seems that you're 
> |jealous that you didn't think of it first and the only thing you could 
> |get to bite your bait was Brig.  Still no date to occupy your time I see! 
> |LOLOLOL  Poor little boy, you've been losing a lot of sleep over this 
> |haven't you?  LOLOLOLOL
> 
> What is this "poor" stuff that you have been droning on about in virtually
> every post you've delivered. Are you so creatively-challanged that you are
> unable to imagine other manifestations of insult-scenarios? Obviously your
> ability to create is very poor.
> 
> Bite my bait? Hmmmm. There was enough who bite my bait, but I threw them
> all back into the sea for the 2nd raters, eg. Goober. I throw you back into
> the primordial ooze for further development.
> 
> Poor, poor, poor. Get origanal, Annal
> -- 
> Wally Keeler					Poetry
> Creative Intelligence Agency			is
> Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
> 
> ======= The following has been added by the mailer software =======
> 
> subs/unsubs info - mailto:
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Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>Ebben az esetben teljesen egyet kell ertenem. Az illeto a bunkok legrosszabb 
>fajtajabol valo. Egyszeruen kemeny anyagi erdek altal strapalodott le az agya.
>Ennel meg a nemzeti hate-mail is jobb.:)
>Benne lennek egy jo kis agyonpostazasban ha meg lehet valahogy biztonsagosan 
>oldani.

No, akkor most cumit kapsz. ;-)
Egyebkent ez az ugy egyben arra kesztet, hogy megkerdezzem itt a
nagyerdemutol, hogy masok postajat is elarasszak-e kulonbozo hivatlan
hirdetok?  En ezekre mar olyan pipa vagyok, hogy eleg durvan szoktam
nekik valaszolni.  Kivancsi lennek, hogy Fekete Zoli leveleinek aljan
talalhato figyelmeztetes pl. hasznal-e egyaltalan?

Az az erzesem, hogy ezek az Internetes hirdeto hienak bedultek egy
mostanaban gyakran hirdetett szeminarium tipus igereteinek, amiben azzal
buzditjak a naiv lelkeket, hogy az Internet remek business lehetosegeket
jelent, s csak egy PC kell modemmel, s otthonaban remek jovedelemhez
juthatnak.  Persze e remek business lehetosegek altalaban csak a
szeminariumok rendezoi szamara jelentkeznek.

Egyebkent a leggyakoribb hirdetes, amit kapok, az meg mindig a "chain
letter" tipusu.  Ezekre szoktam a legjobban begurulni.  De erdekes, a
valaszomat gyakran visszadobja az Internet ismeretlen REPLY address
miatt.  Szoval ovatos duhajok ezek!

PJ

In article >, Mpflerr > wrote:
>
>How about making this into one of those "Tabloid" TV shows? Maybe we could
>call it: "Tip toe through the tulips..with Ms.Vicki" or "What a tangled
>www.we.weave.Ms.Ilona"
>avagy a "Borzalom es a vide'ki komputer tolvaj..."

Great idea!  Now, under what name should we give you the credits?

Joe

 (T. M. Lutas) writes:

>My point, (which you haven't yet addressed) is that minorities have a choice
>to make. It is obvious that the hungarian pocket in the middle of Romania
>can't go it alone and secede. The present Hungarian governmnet doesn't want
>them to and we Romanians would certainly put down any revolt. They either
>have to assimilate with the loss of culture and the increased economic
>opportunities that come with that choice or you remain separate and maintain
>your culture while suffering inevitable loss of economic opportunities due
>to your linguistic and cultural isolation. I don't particularaly advocate
>one over the other but I think that there are quite a few hungarians including
>yourself who don't want to look at this hard choice and honestly make it.

This decision problem is, of course, only present in countries where the 
majority does not allow other options.  In the lamentably few countries
with civilized policies towards minorities, there is the third option of 
maintaining one's minority culture AND participating in the economic 
activities of the country AND maintaing cultural links with the ethnic kin
across the national boundary.

Italy's German-speaking minority in the province of Alto Adige/Sudtyrol
is the best proof that all this is possible.

In contrast, monolingualism and other manifestations of defensive cultural 
isolation of a minority are always indications that that minority feels 
threatened by the majority.

George Antony

In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
Vaski) wrote:

> ....My point?....no I don't believe that all gypsies are crminals
> etc....and thru my remarks I was alluding to the initial post's
> obviously rampant racial slurs....which is a good indincation of the
> poster's frame of mind...the statement about your *vision* was
> deferring to your zany example of the Amish ....relative to Magyars in
> what is their ancestral land....F.I.V.

I used the Amish of an illustration of how a group can not assimilate and
live peacefully. As for the original poster and his frame of mind I have
no crystal ball or psychic powers. And since you didn't provide me with
a few illustrative quotes this time I can't really be sure of what to make
of your assessment.

My point, (which you haven't yet addressed) is that minorities have a choice
to make. It is obvious that the hungarian pocket in the middle of Romania
can't go it alone and secede. The present Hungarian governmnet doesn't want
them to and we Romanians would certainly put down any revolt. They either
have to assimilate with the loss of culture and the increased economic
opportunities that come with that choice or you remain separate and maintain
your culture while suffering inevitable loss of economic opportunities due
to your linguistic and cultural isolation. I don't particularaly advocate
one over the other but I think that there are quite a few hungarians including
yourself who don't want to look at this hard choice and honestly make it.

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

 (T. M. Lutas) wrote:

>In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
>Vaski) wrote:

>> ....My point?....no I don't believe that all gypsies are crminals
>> etc....and thru my remarks I was alluding to the initial post's
>> obviously rampant racial slurs....which is a good indincation of the
>> poster's frame of mind...the statement about your *vision* was
>> deferring to your zany example of the Amish ....relative to Magyars in
>> what is their ancestral land....F.I.V.

>I used the Amish of an illustration of how a group can not assimilate and
>live peacefully. As for the original poster and his frame of mind I have
>no crystal ball or psychic powers. And since you didn't provide me with
>a few illustrative quotes this time I can't really be sure of what to make
>of your assessment.

>My point, (which you haven't yet addressed) is that minorities have a choice
>to make. It is obvious that the hungarian pocket in the middle of Romania
>can't go it alone and secede. The present Hungarian governmnet doesn't want
>them to and we Romanians would certainly put down any revolt. They either
>have to assimilate with the loss of culture and the increased economic
>opportunities that come with that choice or you remain separate and maintain
>your culture while suffering inevitable loss of economic opportunities due
>to your linguistic and cultural isolation. I don't particularaly advocate
>one over the other but I think that there are quite a few hungarians including
>yourself who don't want to look at this hard choice and honestly make it.

>DB

>-- 
>Romanian Political Pages now are available
>http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

....so what do you want them to do?...what would you like to see happen
with them?...I find your statement about the present Hungarian gov't
interesting to say the least.....I think they would sooner become like
the Amish ...then give up their own culture..... it appears tho that
is what you would like to see happen...

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) wrote:

> In article >,
 (T. M. Lutas) says:
> 
> [snip]
> >They either
> >have to assimilate with the loss of culture and the increased economic
> >opportunities that come with that choice or you remain separate and maintain
> >your culture while suffering inevitable loss of economic opportunities due
> >to your linguistic and cultural isolation. I don't particularaly advocate
> >one over the other but I think that there are quite a few hungarians
including
> >yourself who don't want to look at this hard choice and honestly make it.
> 
> I don't buy this stuff about *having to assimilate*. It reveals more 
> of a sentiment for Romanian nationalism than anything else. Why insist 
> that anyone assimilate anywhere with loss of culture, etc? 
> The USA is pretty 
> similar in many respects from what I've seen and heard, where English is 
> not always the first language (or even used at all in many cases, e.g., 
> Hispanics in the South-Western states) and these distinctive cultures 

In the US, hispanics are in the forefront of the fight against bilingual
education. They realize that not learning english is the key to remaining
in the lettuce fields and not moving into the economic mainstream. 
> have thrived for generations (native Americans and blacks are another
> issue.) 

In New York City, taxi drivers now have to speak english by law. You cannot
get a license to drive a cab without speaking the language. Since taxis are
a great tool for upward economic mobility you can see how the non-english 
speaking immigrants either better learn english or they are going to be more
limited in their prospects. The more the limits the more people will fail so
over time and as an average, populations that do not speak the language of
the country do not do well economically.

> Can Romanians not live together with Hungarians, Germans, Russians, 
> etc? I believe they can (and they have done for centuries, after a 
> fashion) but there always has to be those who stir up hatreds for their 
> own egotistical ends (usually under the transparent guise of nationalism.) 

Full bellies and free access to information are the best inoculant against
this disease that we both do not like. Neither communists like Iliescu or 
the rabid variety of nationalists like Funar like prosperity. It cuts into
their power base. Witness the great post-Ceausescu inflation and Caritas.
Both had the same effect of pauperizing many Romanians.

> Where cultural diversity is pro-actively supported under the banner of 
> state citizenship and a pluralistic society allowed to flourish there 
> has always been great economic wealth and great civilization. Conversely, 
> where nationalism and xenophobia rule it has the opposite effect. The 
> day one considers oneself an empathic human being and a citizen of the 
> world before whatever else next is the day one is liberated from the 
> crippling misconception of nationalism and the wooden language of 
> nationalistic politics. When I hear nationalists (whether Romanian, 
> Hungarian, or whatever) speak about others having to assimilate according 
> their rules I hear only ignorance from mental midgets and barbarism 
> underlying it all. 

I am an immigrant in the US. I have had to make choices as to how much of my
culture do I wish to keep. I fully recognize that if I had not learned English
I would be condemned to a miserable ghetto existence of poverty. I chose to
spend time speaking and reading Romanian even though I know I could be doing
other things that would benefit myself more economically. I even hope to get
my writing well enough to one day write on SCR in my mother tongue with the
same clarity and competence that I have in english. 

I realize that these cultural choices are trade offs for me personally. I don't
expect them to be any different for a hungarian in Romania as they are for a
romanian in the USA.

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

We need Hungarian interpreters who are located in Chicago or its suburbs 
for an upcoming assignment in June.  Although this is the immediate need, 
qualified translators everywhere are encouraged to send their resumes for 
future projects.

Best Regards,

Seufina Yoeu, Project Manager
International Languages & Cultures, Inc.
e-mail: 
Fax: 312/321-6541
Telephone: 312/832-7719

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq > wrote:
>
> Unless, of course, the judge happens to remember the Fifth Amendment 

Very good, Zoli!  That's why I think the charge should (and probably
will) be on something that can be proven.  Something that has to do with
invasion of privacy.  Unless, of course, in the meantime there is a leak
giving away Elek's complicity.  It's amazing how these things can
develop sometime, without much effort.  Though I don't underestimate the
Kadar Jugend's ability to close ranks.

>(not that this is likely to ever see a court)...

Sure, if Elek decides to settle.
BTW, the taking of 5th is a double-edged sword; it may save one from the
law, but it sure incriminates him in the public's eye.

Oh, another BTW ...
I wonder how so many former officials of CP or its youth organization
could gain admission into the US.  Is that no longer a barring reason?
It sure used to be a few years back.  Unless, of course, those guys lied
on their application in the first place.  Do you remember such a
question on the visa applications?  Or is it just on the citizenship
applications?  I'm not up to date with the latest admission rules.

I think I'm going to write to my Congresswoman to get info on that and
see if something could be done with these former KISZ secretaries who
still think that they run the show even in the US as aliens.

Joe

Wally Keeler :
			[...snipped...]

>What!? You mean you graduated to secondary? Can we now call you Mike Csuki?
>Here chuck, chuck, chuck. </chuckle,chuckle>

	I used to work with a guy named Csaki.  That was fun:  Chickey &
Chawki!  ;)  In high school they called me, "Freaky Cheeekey" in college
they called me Cheekmeister and in grad school they called me: Mr. Csiki.
Somewheres along the line I became respectable. Who'da thunk it???  
 
;)
Mike.  :)
http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/home.html
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are you still obscessed with this?  Get a life buddy!  Gee, now whatever 
will you do with your time?  Oh, BTW, Dr. Seuss was a published poet too 
so I wouldn't get too full of yourself...LOLOLOLOLOL

On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:

> C'mon Anna, get creative. Is this all you can deliver? A bland petty
> complaint? C'mon, sling a metaphor or two at me. Give us a presentation
> with some wit and humour. C'mon.
> 
> Anna Smith wrote:
> |If you hadn't of helped cultivate it then there wouldn't be such an 
> |abundance now would there?  Poor Wallace.  Seems he just can't let go...
> 
> On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:
> 
> >                    ATTENTION SHOPPERS
> >                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >           SPRING SALE ON GARDEN FERTILIZERS
> 
> [creativity snipped for brevity]
> -- 
> Wally Keeler					Poetry
> Creative Intelligence Agency			is
> Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
> 
> ======= The following has been added by the mailer software =======
> 
> subs/unsubs info - mailto:
> digest - mailto:
>

Oh please...LOLOLOL  Cunt?  Oh my Wallace!  I guess you can put yourself 
in the category you dump everyone else in huh?  Wally, like I said 
before, Dr. Seuss was published too and we've actually heard of him.  
Dried up dumb cunt...that's funny!  Did I make you cry Wally?  Looks like 
this has really upset you so I won't make you cry anymore--I'm the one 
with the life anyhow...like I said-pseudo poet.  I'm glad there have been 
people who have written me letting me know that you aren't the normative 
idiocy around here.  Now I'm going to take their advice (and there were 
many who I should've listened to I see) and ignore you.  Children love 
negative reinforcement and you will get no further reinforcement from 
me.  I'm sure you'll reply, though, and try and goad me.  It's not like 
you're busy with a book tour or anything obviously.

On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:

> Anna Smith wrote:
> |Bacon, how cute!  LOLOL  Ah, spring and seventh grade revisited.  
> |Although, I seem to remember seventh graders as being much more creative 
> |than our resident pseudo poet ...LOLOLOLOL
> 
> We don't see one iota of creativity coming from the dried up dumb cunt that
> you are. You are obviously creatively-challenged. 
> 
> Pseudo-poet? You are way out of your league here toots. You just joined the
> ranks of Gyorgy KoVACUOUS. Sorry babe, I've already established poetic
> credentials, established by my peers. When you have established your
> credentials after graduating med school, then you can give out
> prescriptions, but until then, you are a mere student. When you have
> established your creative credentials, then perhaps you can comment on the
> pseudo-poet, but until then, you belong to the league of the bland and
> banal, which makes you Ms Average. 
> 
> |On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Wally Keeler reverted to his prepubescent and most 
> |favorite time of life:
> 
> Damn right! I avoid your type of maturity like the plague. I nurture the
> child within me. 
> 
> > On March 27, while trolling for an easy spring fling, Goober Barfsai sent
> > out this moose mating call:
> > |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|
> > |o In >                   o|
> > |o 27 Mar 1996, Gabor Barsai wrote:                                  o|
> > |o > Are there any chicks reading this newsgroup? (Beside Marina...) o|
> > |o                                                                   o|
> > |/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
> > 
> > Answering to the call of "Here, chick, chick, chick", We have the self-
> > respecting appearance of one panting Anna Smith, who, in all likelihood
> > would also answer to "Here broad, broad, broad".
> > |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|
> > |o In >  o|
> > |o Mon, 1 Apr 1996 Enike > wrote:      o|
> > |o Sure are!                                                         o|
> > |o Anna                                                              o|
> > |o                                                                   o|
> > \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
> > 
> > Sooooooooiiiiiiiii!
> >                      Sooooooooiiiiiiiii!
> >                                           Sooooooooiiiiiiiii!
> > 
> > "oink! oink! Here I am."
> > 
> > Go get her Goober studmuffin; sizzle the bacon, meathead.
> > -- 
> > Wally Keeler                     Poetry
> > Creative Intelligence Agency               is
> > Peoples Republic of Poetry            Poetency
> -- 
> Wally Keeler					Poetry
> Creative Intelligence Agency			is
> Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
> 
> ======= The following has been added by the mailer software =======
> 
> subs/unsubs info - mailto:
> digest - mailto:
>

T. Kocsis > writes:

>Which could cause problem is not on this table, the gov't's debt
>which is app 33 bn $. The larger part of it is inner debt, which
>is above 20 bn. This sum was borrowed from Hungarian banks.

The above figure is GROSS external debt, and I believe somewhat out
of date.  Much more instructive is the NET external debt that has 
declined from around USD20b to some USD17b over the last 12 months, 
due to early repayments of debt from privatization takings and less 
external borrowing by the Hungarian Government than before.

>AFAIK, the Romanian external debt now exceeds 5 bn $. This is
>the dangerous tendency, because you did not have (or just very
>minimal) debt in the early nineties. ( Our external debt seems
>stabilized and increased very little in the last few years.)

It would also be interesting to see the respective debt-service ratios
of the two countries, i.e., the ratio of debt repayments and foreign
transactions that provide the foreign exchange for repayment.  Ditto
the ratio of net debt to GDP.

George Antony

> In article >,
>  > wrote:
> | That's bull!  If Elek is subpoenad, he HAS TO tell where and how he's
> | got that letter or he can be charged with contempt of court.

 Unless, of course, the judge happens to remember the Fifth Amendment 
(not that this is likely to ever see a court)...
--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

KC2: Dudley+ (Grubor+)*2 (Fomin+++)/3 (cjames++)*3 
     Iatskovski- (Petersen--)/2

SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

In article >, 
s.com (T. M. Lutas) says:

[snip]
>They either
>have to assimilate with the loss of culture and the increased economic
>opportunities that come with that choice or you remain separate and maintain
>your culture while suffering inevitable loss of economic opportunities due
>to your linguistic and cultural isolation. I don't particularaly advocate
>one over the other but I think that there are quite a few hungarians including
>yourself who don't want to look at this hard choice and honestly make it.

I don't buy this stuff about *having to assimilate*. It reveals more 
of a sentiment for Romanian nationalism than anything else. Why insist 
that anyone assimilate anywhere with loss of culture, etc? 
In Britain *today* (this isn't a pro-British advert, but it does, in 
this case, sufficiently illustrate the point) diverse cultures are 
allowed to flourish (not always without opposition from fascistic-
cum-nationalistic mentalities, it's true) with their own schools using 
their own languages, the erection of temples for worship of every 
conceivable religion, etc. These (supposedly non-indiginous) communities 
are successful from an economic point of view, too. The USA is pretty 
similar in many respects from what I've seen and heard, where English is 
not always the first language (or even used at all in many cases, e.g., 
Hispanics in the South-Western states) and these distinctive cultures 
have thrived for generations (native Americans and blacks are another
issue.) Can Romanians not live together with Hungarians, Germans, Russians, 
etc? I believe they can (and they have done for centuries, after a 
fashion) but there always has to be those who stir up hatreds for their 
own egotistical ends (usually under the transparent guise of nationalism.) 
Where cultural diversity is pro-actively supported under the banner of 
state citizenship and a pluralistic society allowed to flourish there 
has always been great economic wealth and great civilization. Conversely, 
where nationalism and xenophobia rule it has the opposite effect. The 
day one considers oneself an empathic human being and a citizen of the 
world before whatever else next is the day one is liberated from the 
crippling misconception of nationalism and the wooden language of 
nationalistic politics. When I hear nationalists (whether Romanian, 
Hungarian, or whatever) speak about others having to assimilate according 
their rules I hear only ignorance from mental midgets and barbarism 
underlying it all. 

Regards.

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

Eric and Johannes,

Eine super idee, schade das die meisten hier nur englisch sprechen und eure 
ideen auf taube ohren fallen werden.

So, why don't you repeat your postings in english, you will be surprised at 
how many positive responses you will get.

Don't worry about it.  I've already forgotten about it and have set up my 
killfile accordingly.  Just read my post to Wallace and maybe you and the 
others he gets joy in trying to irritate can get some ideas as to how to 
handle the brat.  It's not your fault-don't feel you have to apologize.  
Now, on to Magyar business--have you or do you know anyone who has 
applied for (or already has) dual citizenship with the US and Hungary?

Enike

On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Gabor Barsai wrote:

> 
> >On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:
> >> We don't see one iota of creativity coming from the dried up dumb cunt tha
t
> >> you are. You are obviously creatively-challenged.
> 
> Oh, well. Sorry I got ya into this.
> 
> Gabor
>

 (T. M. Lutas) wrote:



>I see that you are backpedaling already. My contention is that Hungarian
>propaganda on transylvania has been dishonest. I provided an example from
>SCR that happened this year (a month or two ago). Your contention is that
>transylvania was, is, and will always be hungarian (as I understand it). 
>Now you have made some statements that romanians are subject to distorted
>world views and biased ethnic propaganda. I don't think that my pointing
>out biased hungarian propaganda that is very inaccurate to be off point at
>all. Both sides have their exaggerators. Funar & co aren't credible sources
>for me. What hungarian propagandists aren't credible sources for you?

>DB

>-- 
>Romanian Political Pages now are available
>http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

....of course both sides have their exaggerators.....so what is that
supposed to mean?....that it is alright to do so?...and I was
responding to the particular post in question...this argument always
becomes moot...that is a given..obviously no side is going to give in
to other...you think you're right...and no amount mountain of facts
could ever sway you....F.I.V.

 (George Barac) wrote:


>   ... I really don't know why you fellow Romanians even bother to follow this
>tread and  waste your time and energy to respond to stupid postings created by
>wishful thinking Hungarians. They will never understand reality because they
>aren't truly looking for it, and they will never accept historical truth becau
se
>it doesn't serve their purpose and their beliefs. It is a well known phenomeno
n:
>there are people who end up believing that what they say is true simply becaus
e
>THEY are the ones to say it; I would call that a combination between wishful
>thinking and denial. They will never understand that the only reason why
>Transilvania was, once, part of Hungary was that Hungary was part of an empire
>who engulfed Transilvania by force. Also, they will never accept that, if we a
re
>talking about discrimination and denial of most basic rights, between Hungary 
and
>Romania, it only applied to our unfortunate predecessors who were unlucky enou
gh
>to live under Hungarian opression, for centuries, and whose only fault was tha
t
>they wanted to preserve their national identity while being governed by sick
>minded, irational people. Moreover, nowadays, these people don't realize that 
they
>enjoy so many rights and liberties, as a minority in Romania, that no other
>country in the world could provide that for them (except, of course, for Hunga
ry;
>but then they would no longer be a minority). 

>  ... So, why are we wasting our time with them?

>                                   George 

>   



>-- 
>George Barac


......wow....are you ever a product of your peoples propaganda....of
course you believe that the Romanians were there long before anyone or
anything for that matter....even before something wiggled out of the
primordial ooze...there where Romanians there according to you and
those that wishfully think like you...so where are the traces of this
brilliant Daco-Roman civilization?..your theories have become the
great Romanian National Myth.....

Hello!
Could anybody give me the Fax number of the porcelain factory of 
Herend?? (if there is one)
I would like to buy some of there articles and don't know how to do it
from France!
Any help would be highly appreciated...

best,
Antoine.

> wrote:
>Pannon Jozsef azt hiszi, "erkolcsi nulla"-nak nevezheti Elek Gabort
>minden tiltakozas nelkul. Nagyon teved! Sot, meg le is "dogkeselyuzte"
>Elek Gabort.

Hat azt azert nem!  

PJ

Gyula Szokoly > wrote:
>
>  As I recall, O.J. Simpson is innocent. Period. Does not mean that
>he did not do it, but he is innocent. Everything else is your opinion
>only, and has nothing to do with law.

Now, OJ is NOT innocent.  He was only found NOT guilty. And we know by what
kind of jury.

Besides, this is not a court of law and thus don't need the kind of
evidenciary procedures as in a court room.  This is a court of public
opinion.  Just because a court did not find Elek guilty yet, I can still
accuse him with anything I want.  That's what he has been doing with me
ever since he showed up in these Hungarian related Internet forums.

>  Could you finally try to understand what others are talking about?

Better than you!

>Everybody is arguing that based on the evidence presented, Elek is
>not guilty (as the term is defined in the constitution). Since you have 
>problems accepting this legal system, where 'probably guilty' means 'not
>guilty', may be you should find some other country to live in. The middle east
 

No kiddin!  What gives you the idea that you know general legal
principles better than I?  How long have you been in this country, anyway?
As I said before, what you are pushing here is the case in legal sense
only.  But this is not a court room.  I hear the Unabomber being accused
in the media all the time, yet he was not convicted yet.  I can accuse
Elek just as well.  Heck, I gave him already the benefit of doubt when I
stated that I did not belive he himself committed the break-in.

>  On the other hand, as an oh so good computer expert, how did it happen
>to you? Are you saying that with all your computer knowledge, you kept
>sensitive e-mail in opentext on a multiuser computer? No sane computer
>expert would consider an e-mail stored that way 'private'. If I leave
>a private (paper) mail in a conference room (opened), I should not
>complain if somebody reads it. If I send a postcard (the equivalent
>of an opentext e-mail), I'm sure it will be read by others (postmaster,
>secretary, etc.).
>
Now that's the dummest thing you could have said!  And not only for one
reason.

First, I never claimed to be an "oh so good computer expert" as you
imply.  What I wrote about the subject is hardly something requiring
SysAdmin knowledge.  You of all people should know that much.

Second, I never stated that it was definitely lifted from my machine.  
I was only the addresse and I usually delete mail after reading, especially
sensitive one.  But that still gives some window of opportunity for a
cracker, granted.

Third, such a self-appointed lecturer as you, should know that not even
the sites of defense companies are secure enough against determined and
knowledgeable crackers.

Fourth, you made a bunch of assumptions about private mail "laying
around".  The mail might have been on my node only till I had the chance
to read it.  And you certainly don't know how well I guard my account
(unless you were the cracker in the first place, of course).

Fifth, even if an account is not as secure as it can be, it does not
justify somebody else sticking his nose into it.  According to your
logic, it's OK to break into homes with the key under the mat.  So just
let's blame the victim for not being cautious enough!  Thanks for sharing
that insight. 

Is that enough?

Joe

On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Ferenc Istvan Vaski wrote:

> primordial ooze...there where Romanians there according to you and
> those that wishfully think like you...so where are the traces of this
> brilliant Daco-Roman civilization?..your theories have become the
> great Romanian National Myth.....

Even if it were so, what then ?! Christ is a myth, yet countless misguided
souls will stake their afterlife on it !
You would stil have to acknowledge the reality of that belief. I don't
think you would score a lot of points in a Catholic church trying to
persuade the faithful that the Pope is an impostor, and Christ never was !

Thus if you want to improve things for the Hungarian minority in
Transylvania, you may just have to put to rest the fears of the majority,
don't you think ?

m. cristian

In article > T. M.
Lutas,  writes:
>So a country that is twice as big as Hungary has $5bn external debt.
>Hungary has over $12bn external debt (remember these are your own
>figures). Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Well, if Romania twice as big as Hungary, it is time to me to escape
from Switzerland 'cose she is even smaller than Hungary.... :) :)

Back to the coke bottle, nevertheless the Romanian population is the
double of the Hungarian's, still Hungary drinks twice as many coke as
Romania. Life can be goddamn crude, can't it ?

>There is a danger for Romania because much of the money that has been
>taken in has financed private gain for the well connected and also to
>purchase consumer goods that will not lead to Romania recovering from
>the ill economic effects of communism. 

I am sorry to say, but this is tipical socialist logic. The best place of
that money is the private sector. 

>I pity the poor idiots who have invested in Hungary though.

Dou you ? They are perhaps idiots but definitelly not poor. Tomorrow I'll
give you a list of our ten richest strategic idiots.

>Like the Ja-
>panese land investors in US properties of the 1980's they bought while
>the going was  good and are now bailing out in a down market taking
>tremendous losses.

You are misinformed. Those big losses happened in Japan. The real estate
market collapsed there and is still far from recovered. Comparing to that
they had minor investments in the States.

>If the communists hold true to form, Hungary is due for an economic
>decline.

No way.  They are only by name socialist. In politics they run a liberal-
conservative economy, in ideology they are comprador bourgeoisie.
(Check out Marx if you don't remember what it is.)

>the next big
>challenge will be how to make CDR government successful enough so that
>the communists don't make a comeback

I've thought CDR government is a communist one. Not deep red anymore,
just rose with brown traces. With the exeption of the big boss they are
still the same set of ol' farts, aren't they ? I guess you voted for
them...

Tamás

In article > George Antony Ph 93818,
 writes:
>It would also be interesting to see the respective debt-service ratios
>of the two countries,

From Business Central Europe [February]:

Debt service (% of goods/service exports in 1994)

Hungary :   57.0
Romania:      not available
Slovakia:     not available
Czech R.:    4.7
Bulgaria:   25.0
Russia:    159.0
Poland:     12.8
Slovenia:    9.3


Tamás

The HUNGARY rejects my posts so I send it here.

In article > HIX HUNGARY,  writes:
> A minority among the first Magyar settlers of Hungary  was of Mosaic creed
>(see: Kiss, A.: 11th Century Khazar Rings from Hungary with Hebrew Letters
>and Signs, in: Acta Archaeologica Acad. Scient. Hungarica 22,1970 pp. 341-348)

After reading those arabic sources I don't agree with you on this.
Few rings does not prove anything, they can be either simple jewelry
or looted stuff without any religious meaning. In those graves there
were found plenty of arabic coints with texts on them praying allah,
and that does not mean that the Hungarian has spoken arabic. AFAIK,
there were found a silver decoration plate with a cross in the mid-
dle garnished around with tipical steppian nomadic motives. This
neither means that the Hungarian who happened to wear that was a
christian.

Back to the possible jewish religion of the three Kabar tribes
which joined to the Hungarians: i simply can't believe that there
were any of them on jewish religion. I'll tell you why.

The arabic sources unanimously mention that the jewsish leadership
was a very thin, closed stratum, who only could manage to rule the
christian and muslim majority (they mention 30 mosks and minarets
only in Itil, in the Khazar capital) because they used them against
each other.(Not to mention the pagan nomad tribes now.) Maszudi men-
tiones that the christians and the muslims never agreed in anything.
The jewish leadership had to keep together very tightly to manage
staying on the top, playing bisantic tricks against each other would
surely have destroyed their power. Their number was, according to
Ibn Rustah, no more than 4000.

Large part of active soldiers were muslims (alan) tribes who escaped
away from the wars in arabia and iran. They got land, in exchange for
it they had to serve in the army when the king fought against anybody
but muslims.

Ibn Fadhlan describes a very interesting story. The Khazar leader
heard that muslins destroyed a synagogue in Babunds. As a retali-
ation he had a minaret destroyed and the muezzins executed --- in
his kingdom, in his capital.

Knowing this, together with the information of other sources, I
can imagine that three of the muslim tribes said that it is quite
enough, and joined to the hungarians, and they were those three
Kabar tribes. According to the Annales Iuvavenses Maximi they
were not aid nations of the Hungarians that had to fight in the
first line but partners posessing equal rights in the alliance
and attacked the West independently from the seven other tribes.
("Primum bellum cum Ungaris ad Weniam. Secundum bellum cum
Cowaris ad Culmite")

So there is a big chance that large part (even majority) of the
conquester tribes were on muslim religion.

Tamas

In article >,
Enike  > wrote:
>Thanks for putting me there Wallace.  All these years?  I'm probably a
>3rd your age...

But 3 times the brain ...

>
>On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:
>
>> Anna Smith, still in a snorgasm after all these years:
>> |zzzzzzzzzzz
>>
>> Wally Keeler

Magyar egyetemistak es foiskolasok Magyarorszagrol es a kornyezo orszagokbol 
vegyetek reszt az "European Student Congress96"-on Liègeben, 1996 novembre 18 e
s 22 
kozott. Reszlet az elso europai diak kongresszus deklaraciojabol (1990) : 

"We, students of all European countries, citizens of the Old Continent commit 
ourselves to build a tolerant peaceful, united Europe from Atlantic to Oural. B
ack 
in our respective countries, we propose to preserve our common heritage and wor
k for 
the fraternity of European People" 

Bovebbet a kovetkezo cimen:  hhttp://www.ulg.ac.be/~fede/congress96/

A jelentkezes hatarideje 1996 majus 1.

Thanks for putting me there Wallace.  All these years?  I'm probably a 
3rd your age...

On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:

> Anna Smith, still in a snorgasm after all these years:
> |zzzzzzzzzzz
> 
> On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:
> >                             (
> >    (                                                     )
> >              )               )
> >     )                       (           )                         (
> > The(smell of(Goober's post on)ce it is in the atmosphere:(
> >   ((                        ((         (      (                    )
> >    ))       )      (         ))         )                )        (
> >   ((       (                (((        ((      )        (          ))
> >   )))      ))       )       ))))    )   ))    (          )        ((
> >  ((((     ((   )   (   )   (((((   (   ((         )     ((    )   )))
> > In > on 11 Apr))1996  ((((
> >  (Gabor Barsai) wrote: (((      )))))
> > Mating call? I just asked if there were any chicks reading the ng, since
> > there was too much name-calling going on, and I thought I may lighten up
> > the discussions. Whatever you read into it is up to you. I wasn't aware of
> > the fact that you use it to mate with moose. (So tell us, what's it like,
> > eh?) BTW, I'm sure Ms. Bali is offended that you equate chicks (ie. cute
> > women with a personality) with moose.I think the misunderstanding comes
> > from the fact that Ms. Bali equated chicks with fluff-chicks (ie. like >
> > women on the popular show "Crotchwatch"). Gabor (ooooooooooopps, I mean
> > Goober) aka. Bird Jaguar, Lord of the Mayas at Yaxchilan
> -- 
> Wally Keeler					Poetry
> Creative Intelligence Agency			is
> Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
> 
> ======= The following has been added by the mailer software =======
> 
> subs/unsubs info - mailto:
> digest - mailto:
>

In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
Vaski) wrote:

> .....wow....are you ever a product of your peoples propaganda....of
> course you believe that the Romanians were there long before anyone or
> anything for that matter....even before something wiggled out of the
> primordial ooze...there where Romanians there according to you and
> those that wishfully think like you...so where are the traces of this
> brilliant Daco-Roman civilization?..your theories have become the
> great Romanian National Myth.....

I just posted an announcement that the Vatican is opening up its documents
on early Romanian Christianity for exhibition. I would say that they are
a neutral source that is only interested in the truth on this matter. Some
of those traces you so scornfully asked for are there.

I await to hear how this Polish pope is partaking of the extension of the
"great Romanian National Myth". But of course everybody is unjust to the
Hungarians, you most of all.

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

In article >,
 (George Antony Ph 93818) wrote:

> This decision problem is, of course, only present in countries where the 
> majority does not allow other options.  In the lamentably few countries
> with civilized policies towards minorities, there is the third option of 
> maintaining one's minority culture AND participating in the economic 
> activities of the country AND maintaing cultural links with the ethnic kin
> across the national boundary.

It would be nice to think that you can square the circle. I would like to
here some practical examples of how you think this can be done.

> Italy's German-speaking minority in the province of Alto Adige/Sudtyrol
> is the best proof that all this is possible.

What is present that allows such a thing to happen? Is it a legal arrangement?
Has there been cultural peace negotiated over the years between the two? What
do you see Romania needing to adjust to adopt this magical best of both 
worlds alternative?

> In contrast, monolingualism and other manifestations of defensive cultural 
> isolation of a minority are always indications that that minority feels 
> threatened by the majority.

A person or an ethnic group can feel threatened without there actually being
a threat. So is the threatened feeling coming from actual threat (and what
is it)? Is it paranoia or other collective mental illness? Is it a guilty
conscience over what you did to us in the preceding century? Or is it a 
combination of all of the above? Please give me an analysis of what you think 
is the basis for this threatened feeling. You seem to have novel ideas.

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

Path:
betty.bway.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net
!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!geo
From:  (George Barac) Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
Subject: About Transilvania belonging to Hungary Date: 15 Apr 1996 16:40:20
GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA Lines: 31
Message-ID: > NNTP-Posting-Host:
pv040b.vincent.iastate.edu Originator:  ... I
really don't know why you fellow Romanians even bother to follow this tread
and waste your time and energy to respond to stupid postings created by
wishful thinking Hungarians. They will never understand reality because they
aren't truly looking for it, and they will never accept historical truth
because it doesn't serve their purpose and their beliefs. It is a well known
phenomenon: there are people who end up believing that what they say is true
simply because THEY are the ones to say it; I would call that a combination
between wishful thinking and denial. They will never understand that the
only reason why Transilvania was, once, part of Hungary was that Hungary was
part of an empire who engulfed Transilvania by force. Also, they will never
accept that, if we are talking about discrimination and denial of most basic
rights, between Hungary and Romania, it only applied to our unfortunate
predecessors who were unlucky enough to live under Hungarian opression, for
centuries, and whose only fault was that they wanted to preserve their
national identity while being governed by sick minded, irational people.
Moreover, nowadays, these people don't realize that they enjoy so many
rights and liberties, as a minority in Romania, that no other country in the
world could provide that for them (except, of course, for Hungary; but then
they would no longer be a minority). ... So, why are we wasting our time
with them? George -- George Barac 

In article >,  > wrote:

>Now, OJ is NOT innocent.  He was only found NOT guilty. And we know by what
>kind of jury.

  He was found not guilty by a legal jury of the United States. By the
letter of the law, he is not guilty. You don't have to like but, but
this is how this system is set up (and it's good, IMHO).

>Besides, this is not a court of law and thus don't need the kind of
>evidenciary procedures as in a court room.  This is a court of public

  It is, sorry. The original post of the thread started on legal
grounds. Everybody noticed it, except You. To decide wheter Elek is
guilty by law is possible. Public opinion is a different matter.
What public? Which subset of the population?

>>  Could you finally try to understand what others are talking about?

>Better than you!

  Others are using legal definitions, you are not. That's what I was
trying to point out.

>>Everybody is arguing that based on the evidence presented, Elek is
>>not guilty (as the term is defined in the constitution). Since you have 
>>problems accepting this legal system, where 'probably guilty' means 'not
>>guilty', may be you should find some other country to live in. The middle eas
t 
>
>No kiddin!  What gives you the idea that you know general legal
>principles better than I?  How long have you been in this country, anyway?

  Too long, I think. Can't quote the constitution, but it sure says
something about everybody being not guilty about proven innocent.
The Kadar constitution did say something like this. Can't believe
the Land of Freedom doesn't have something simmilar.
  I'm also familiar with the freedom of speech. You rely on it accusing
Elek, I do to point out that what You say is bogous in the legal sense.

>As I said before, what you are pushing here is the case in legal sense
>only.  But this is not a court room.  I hear the Unabomber being accused
>in the media all the time, yet he was not convicted yet.  I can accuse
>Elek just as well.  Heck, I gave him already the benefit of doubt when I
>stated that I did not belive he himself committed the break-in.

  I have no problem with You acusing Elek. I have problem when You
state Your opinions as facts. Actually the media seems to say 'unabomber
suspec X.Y.', not the 'unabomber'. Not the same.
  My point: Elek is not guilty in the legal sense based on the evidence
that we saw so far. If you want to talk about Elek being guilty in some
other sense, You should define the term 'guilty' first.

>>  On the other hand, as an oh so good computer expert, how did it happen
>>to you? Are you saying that with all your computer knowledge, you kept

>Now that's the dummest thing you could have said!  And not only for one
>reason.
>
>First, I never claimed to be an "oh so good computer expert" as you
>imply.  What I wrote about the subject is hardly something requiring
>SysAdmin knowledge.  You of all people should know that much.

  You made fun of a system administrator using the term 'hacker' properly.
If you claim better knowledge of computers than a sysadmin, I guess
you are a 'good computer expert'.

>Second, I never stated that it was definitely lifted from my machine.  

  Than just what do You state? Come clear, please.

>I was only the addresse and I usually delete mail after reading, especially
>sensitive one.  But that still gives some window of opportunity for a
>cracker, granted.

  Here I suggest a bit more reading. Sending a sensitive e-mail without strong
encyption is (no offense) is stupid. There are about 1000 opportunities
to intercept it. I'm not saying that it's OK to read it.

>Third, such a self-appointed lecturer as you, should know that not even
>the sites of defense companies are secure enough against determined and
>knowledgeable crackers.

  As a 'self-appointed lecturer', I know that there is no secure way
of communication. Including but not limited computers. What I'm saying is
that it is possible to achive the level of security that you have
with snal mail.

>Fourth, you made a bunch of assumptions about private mail "laying
>around".  The mail might have been on my node only till I had the chance
>to read it.  And you certainly don't know how well I guard my account
>(unless you were the cracker in the first place, of course).

  This shows how little You know about computers and internet. The
security of your account has nothing to do with your e-mail 'laying
around'.

>Fifth, even if an account is not as secure as it can be, it does not
>justify somebody else sticking his nose into it.  According to your

  We agree here.

>logic, it's OK to break into homes with the key under the mat.  So just
>let's blame the victim for not being cautious enough!  Thanks for sharing
>that insight. 

  No, blame the victim *and* the offender. Do You lock your house?

  Closing argument: can we agree that based on the evidence that we saw,
Elek is not guilty based on legal definitions? As for the 'public opinion'
part: I don't care. Really. Just like I don't care if my friend is
cheating his wife, etc. My empathy is limited, and I see much more
important problems than a stollen e-mail. I don't even see what was the
point of bringing it up on this forum (reaching millions, probably).
If Ilona thinks there was a crime, there are legal procedures to settle
the matter. Why do we have to know about it? Is this so relevant to
the hungarian culture? Yes, e-mails are stollen/lost. Hungarians do
it, americans do it, christians do it, ateists do it, etc. No surprise.

Gyula

-- 
Gyula P. Szokoly ) -------------------------------\
|  When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according|
|to your principles; when I am  stronger than  you, I take away  your freedom|
|because that is according to my principles.                 -- Frank Herbert|

In article > I. Nadasdi,
 writes:
>"We, students of all European countries, citizens of the Old Continent
>commit ourselves to build a tolerant peaceful, united Europe from At-
>lantic to Oural. Back in our respective countries, we propose to preserve
>our common heritage and work for the fraternity of European People"

Na ne viccejj már velünk, Liège kicsit messze van ahhoz, hogy
csak úgy odautazzon az ember egy ijjen általános peaceful meg
tolerant összeröffenésre..

Ki fizeti meg a révészt ?

És fõleg: pont beleesik az õszi szemeszterbe. Mér' nem a szü-
netben politizáltok ?

Tamás

 (George Antony Ph 93818) writes:

>This decision problem is, of course, only present in countries where the 
>majority does not allow other options.  In the lamentably few countries
>with civilized policies towards minorities, there is the third option of 
>maintaining one's minority culture AND participating in the economic 
>activities of the country AND maintaing cultural links with the ethnic kin
>across the national boundary.

Pray tell, what is preventing the Transylvanian Hungarians from adopting
the third option?  A reality check will show that this is precisely what 
most of them did from 1918 to this day.  So, what exactly is your point?

According to your argument, Romania is one of the "lamentably few countries
with civilized policies towards minorities" :-)

Dan
-- 
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
Vaski) wrote:

>  (T. M. Lutas) wrote:

> >My point, (which you haven't yet addressed) is that minorities have a choice
> >to make. It is obvious that the hungarian pocket in the middle of Romania
> >can't go it alone and secede. The present Hungarian governmnet doesn't want
> >them to and we Romanians would certainly put down any revolt. They either
> >have to assimilate with the loss of culture and the increased economic
> >opportunities that come with that choice or you remain separate and maintain
> >your culture while suffering inevitable loss of economic opportunities due
> >to your linguistic and cultural isolation. I don't particularaly advocate
> >one over the other but I think that there are quite a few hungarians
> >including yourself who don't want to look at this hard choice and honestly 
< >make it.

> ...so what do you want them to do?...what would you like to see happen
> with them?...I find your statement about the present Hungarian gov't
> interesting to say the least.....I think they would sooner become like
> the Amish ...then give up their own culture..... it appears tho that
> is what you would like to see happen...

I want them to understand as a community that this is a choice that each
individual hungarian ethnic is going to have to make and to draw a line
between these two poles of assimilation and isolation. My preference is
to make your bed, lie in it, and stop whining. 

There probably are unjust Romanians in this world who are prejudiced to
hungarians. I've met a few. I believe that they should stop and I engage
them when I find them. What makes it very hard to clean up my own 
community is that they can point to unjustified hungarian whining and 
outright propaganda lies. This makes it more difficult to pin these unjust
romanians down.

My interest is in my own community, to rebuild its character in whatever
small ways that I can as an individual romanian. Hungary and hungarians
are for me an incidental that is a distraction from the moral challenges
that lie ahead for Romania. Whether or not we treat hungarians properly
is incidental the moral question of whether or not we treat people 
properly without regard to their ethnicity.

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, George Lazar wrote:
....
> If not, I suggest to remove the entire group from the usenet list.

In the meantime, why do not you catch up with some reading about Usenet?
Maybe you should start at news.announce.newusers . Then, come back and
complain again, if you still think you are making sense.
Good luck,
Gotthard

In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
Vaski) wrote:

>  (T. M. Lutas) wrote:

> >I see that you are backpedaling already. My contention is that Hungarian
> >propaganda on transylvania has been dishonest. I provided an example from
> >SCR that happened this year (a month or two ago). Your contention is that
> >transylvania was, is, and will always be hungarian (as I understand it). 
> >Now you have made some statements that romanians are subject to distorted
> >world views and biased ethnic propaganda. I don't think that my pointing
> >out biased hungarian propaganda that is very inaccurate to be off point at
> >all. Both sides have their exaggerators. Funar & co aren't credible sources
> >for me. What hungarian propagandists aren't credible sources for you?

> ...of course both sides have their exaggerators.....so what is that
> supposed to mean?....that it is alright to do so?...and I was
> responding to the particular post in question...this argument always
> becomes moot...that is a given..obviously no side is going to give in
> to other...you think you're right...and no amount mountain of facts
> could ever sway you....F.I.V.

Ah, more backpedaling from FIV. 
Question asked
1. What hungarian propagandists aren't credible sources for you?

Question not answered
1. What hungarian propagandists aren't credible sources for you?

I gave a particular example to start you off. An entire political party,
the PUNR, is not a credible source. You did not respond with any renunciation
of any hungarian individual or group that goes too far. Does this mean that
you don't know of any hungarians that go too far? All you read and hear 
from the hungarian perspective is so far in bounds? Hungarian exaggerators
are just a theoretical proposition for you? This is an incredible admission
of extremism, this policy of "no enemies more irredentist than me". 

As for facts, you have yet to present any. Just because I am opinionated
does not mean that I don't listen and never change my mind. I think that
this is extremely unfair to come to this conclusion about me without knowing 
me, how I think, and what criteria I use to change my mind.

It is very simple really. For you to change my mind you have to first 
present a case. The case has to be relatively logical with no internal
inconsistencies and with no response that I can conceive that destroys
it. After giving the matter much thought I will change my mind and agree
with you. But you haven't yet even begun to present a case! The case's
merits have yet to be proved! And I certainly haven't had time to consider
all the implications of your position. No, your assertion that I will never
change my mind is a cheap debating trick coming from a person unwilling
to expose whatever substantive positions that he has for fear of being 
identified as uninformed and intellectually unprepared for a real debate.

Take the plunge Mr. Vaski. You may convince me that you are right. But
to do so you have to risk knowing in your heart that I am right. That, in
the end, is the essence of intellectual engagement.

DB

PS
Just so I don't repeat your own errors:
> ...of course both sides have their exaggerators.....so what is that
> supposed to mean?....that it is alright to do so?

No, it is not alright to base an ideology on exaggeration. As a rhetorical
flourish, a Swiftian modest proposal, exaggeration has an honored history.
But it is honestly used to highlight a broader true point not to muddy the
discussion and hide the light of truth.

DB

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