In article >,  says...
>Regarding the meaning of "recuperate," my dictionary says: 1.to regain
>health or strength; 2.to recover from loss, as of money; 3.to obtain
>again after loss; recover; 4.to restore to vigor and health.--Syn: see
>RECOVER. From Latin ,re--back + capere--to take.
>The meanings are the same as in Romanian, although #3 is probably the
>most common one.  

The translation must have been made by someone whose first language is 
not English. In the context of the statement, *recuperate* is not common 
usage, although pretty close: *recover* was obviously meant. 

One can't quote dictionary definitions to justify the use of recuperate
in the sentence (used by the Romanian politician.) The difference is a 
subtle question of usage and *sounding* of the language. Recuperate might 
be used in the sense of *taking back* were the structure of the sentence 
and the context different, but that is another matter. In this case it 
was just a clumsy translation.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

Very interesting point. could you be so kind to make an explicit summary 
of your theory and provide us with informations about the sources which 
sustain such a point af view.Usualy names of Universities or sciantists 
will do.(From Russia?).
And could you tell us how relible is the so called " Mitochondrial DNA" ? 
in establishing the relation between races.Elaborate please.

Hello - I am considering the purchase of a residential apartment in
Budapest, which I would rent as an investment.  I want to do some
research before I move ahead with this.  Does anyone have an advice or
opinions that might help me?  I am an American - are there any
problems with American ownership of a flat in Budapest?

Any help is welcome and greatly appreciated.  Thank you very much.

Bob Logan

In the Olympic medal count that sport editors use in the US, Hungary is
positioned 10th today (July 26th).  She has 3 golds, 2 silvers and 5
bronzes, 10 in total.  Among other Central European countries only
Poland is ahead of Hungary, though with the same total medal count, but
more golds among them.  Romania and Bulgaria with 6 medals each, are
placed 13th and 14th, respectively. Austria with one silver and Slovakia
with one bronze are way behind, in the "also ran" category.
This is not too bad for Hungary, with her small pool of possible
athletes compared to some of her much more populous neighbors, but I
don't think they will match their success in Barcelona.

BTW, I never understood why American sports papers don't use weighted
point system in which a gold medal is worth more ponts than the silver
or bronze, or the silver more than the bronze.  As it is, the medals
have the same weight, regardless their color, unless there is a tie in
the total counts of countries.  Maybe this is too heavy a concept for
the American sports reporters?

Joe Pannon

Mihai Caragiu > wrote:
>
>  SETON-WATSON, ROBERT WILLIAM (1879-1951), historian, 
>was born in London 20 August 1879, the only child of
>William Livingston Watson, a well-to-do Scottish 
>merchant in Calcutta and London and a landowner in
>Scotland, and his wife, Elisabeth Lindsay, daughter 
>of the Scottish genealogist George Seton. His mother

Oh-oh!  I bet I know what this is leading up to.
I might have to retrieve Jeliko's excellent research on the other side
of this character.

Joe

 (David Gaudine) wrote:

>In war both parties can fight each other, i.e. bomb each other's military
>bases and so on.  Terrorists hide among the civilian population, giving
>no target for retaliation.

Does this make the resistance fighters of World War II terrorists?

>In an all-out war, sooner or later somebody will probably win.  Terrorists
>just cause senseless death and destruction, and are unlikely to ever
>accomplish anything for their own people.  Other than making them look bad.

On the contrary these people made an impact.  They slowed the Germans down
and forced them to devote resources that would have otherwise been used against
the Russians, British Commonwealth and American forces.

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Geoff

-- 
E.G. Engelbrecht                            School of Mechanical Engineering
E-Mail:      Cranfield University, U.K.
   
   | ______       __     _____________________________________________
   |__\ O|\ O ___/  \   / WWW Home Page:                              |
  ( ** \=|-\='CG-EGE/---| http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/public/me/me946/ |
   |-=__\|__\__==-\'    \_____________________________________________|
   |  | /          o
      (o)

On July 23/96 > (Maria Egorov) claimed:
    [----------------------------------------------------------------]
    [ I know lots of Hungarians in United States and other foreign   ]
    [ lands who are presenting the Romanians as Gipses.Advancing the ]
    [ idea that ROM=ROMANIAN=GYPSY.                                  ]
    [----------------------------------------------------------------]

So you know LOTS OF HUNGARIANS. Then prove it, liar. List the names of
just a few and provide citations to prove that "lots of Hungarians" are
advancing the idea that Romanians are Gypsies. Prove it. Or are you just
a RACIST LIAR? Prove your statement, Egorova.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

On July 20/96 in >,
 (Maria Egorov) rudely wrote:

       [+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++]
       [  Sir, you are gone with the wind,and you spit against it. ]
       [+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++]


On July 22/96 in >
(Gyorgy Kovacs)eloquently replied:

       [+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++]
       [ Spitting against wind would still beat what you do:       ]
       [ pissing against strong wind.                              ]
       [+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++]

This reminds me of a line in a poem written by Canadian poet, Al Purdy, in
which he wrote about two drunks [with an EGOrov attitude] standing in an
meadow "pissing at the stars
        and failing
        magnificently."

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Istvan Szucs wrote:

> The point I was making was that  there are many people hwo
> are pro life and pro choice at the same time (when the terms
> are used properly). not that this is your opinion/.
> BTW I disagree about your statement about what we
> need... but that again is a different issue.

Please tell me how is possible to be pro-choice and pro-life at the same 
time.

-- 

Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
PGP Key Fingerprint = 9D 85 B7 63 7D 85 14 C1  4C 36 CB 5E 92 70 FE E3
---

I did send a polite protest to CocaCola via "talk back" facility of
their Web page.  Here is the answer I've got:

"Thank you for contacting us regarding NBC's telecasts of the 1996
Centennial Olympic Games.  We were sorry to hear of your
disappointment.

Though The Coca-Cola Company is one of the major sponsors of the
Olympics, we actually have no influence in network programming
decisions surrounding the games.  Networks make it very clear to
everyone involved that they are in full control of the coverage.  I
suggest you contact NBC about this issue.

We appreciate your giving us this opportunity to respond.  Please
visit our site again soon.

Phil Dunn
The Coca-Cola Company"
------------------------

I might add that I also wrote to the "feedback" address of the NBC Web
page, but received no answer.  I didn't really expect one, either.

Joe Pannon

Liviu Iordache > wrote:
>
>Sorry Joe, but it seems to me you don't have a clear point this time.
>Tinca's interview for Magyar Nemzet was not necessarily conducted in
>English and ,therefore, "recuperating Transylvania" might be just
>Shafir's literatim translation from Romanian (BTW, a careful reading
>should reveal that Shafir's source is, apparently, de Romanian daily
>"Evenimentul Zilei").

Since the OMRI news itself contained the questionable phrase in quotes,
I assumed it was verbatim from Tinca.  It doesn't make sense to me for
Shafir to do that with his own translation.

>Regarding the meaning of "recuperate," my dictionary says: 1.to regain
>health or strength; 2.to recover from loss, as of money; 3.to obtain
>again after loss; recover; 4.to restore to vigor and health.--Syn: see
>RECOVER. From Latin ,re--back + capere--to take.

Sorry, Liviu, but the only context I ever hear the word is "recuperating
from illness", regardless of what other possible meaning the word might
have.  In fact, sounding so similar to the word "recapture", I think
that's what Tinca really meant to use.

>The meanings are the same as in Romanian, although #3 is probably the
>most common one.  

I think #1 is the most common use, and that's why my Webster mentions it
ahead of other meanings.

Regards,
Joe

In article >,
Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs wrote:
| 
| > frankly I didn't read it. In waht respect did they think
| > it's good? Is it healthy? Pleasurable? Profitable?
| 
| THey think that abortion is normal medical procedure, and nothing more.

I fail to see how that is propaganda, or encouragement.


| 
| > That's true but you can be pro life and pro choice at the
| > same time.
| 
| But I don't want to be "pro-choice". We need no choice.

SO then you are not pro choice. But others still can be...
| 
| > You can say I encourage you not to have an abortion (hence
| > be pro life - or for life)but I respect your choice and
| > allow you to act on your choice - hence be pro choice.
| 
| I don't respect people doing abortions. I'm not "pro-choice" We need no 
| choice.

The point I was making was that  there are many people hwo
are pro life and pro choice at the same time (when the terms
are used properly). not that this is your opinion/.
BTW I disagree about your statement about what we
need... but that again is a different issue.


Istvan

Since ALL the Hungarian sciantists were JEWS and since I am a JEW myself, 
I think the appropriate way to express this is: 
 Hungarian JEWS WHO WON NOBEL PRIZES.
IN THIS WAY WE RESPECT EACH OTHER. NO CONFUSIONS ALLOWED.

Mihai G. Sirbu > wrote:
>
>NATO EXERCISES IN HUNGARY. NATO on 20 July began its first air maneuvers
>in Hungary within the framework of the Partnership for Peace program,
>international media reported. The exercises involve some 50 planes and
>1,100 troops from eight NATO-member countries, Austria, Poland, Hungary,
>the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Romania, and Bulgaria. 

I've gotta' watch this one!  Will those Hungarian peasants match the
patriotic fervor of their South-Eastern neighbors or not?

>ROMANIAN PRESIDENT, FOREIGN MINISTER ON NATO MEMBERSHIP. Ion Iliescu, in
>an interview with Die Presse on 19 July, reiterated his positionthat
>Romania and Hungary will either join NATO together or not at all. 

Wow!  Since when has Iliescu veto power over Hungary's membership?
I might add that I'd prefer both countries becoming members at the same
time, but if it's the choice of Hungary alone, or not until Romania also
qualifies, I vote for Hungary going alone.  Reluctantly though, because
of the potential cost of that membership. 

>said any "discrimination" in Hungary's favor would produce a "climate of
>competition, mistrust, and instability."

Hardly an instability, for Romania would not dare to attack a NATO
member, while Hungary would be held back by it (besides her smaller
size).  I think the instability is greater in the present power vacuum.

> Foreign Minister Teodor
>Melescanu, at the end of a five-day working visit to the U.S., said that
>if priority were given to some East European countries applying for
>membership, a new dividing line would be created between NATO and
>Eastern Europe, Reuters reported.

One could also look at it as the historic dividing line being restored
between the Eastern and Western Church dominated countries of Europe.
Between Byzantium and Rome, so to speak.
Unfortunately, Transylvania would fall on the wrong side in this
division though.

>NATO NAVAL EXERCISE IN ROMANIA.

I guess NATO must have learned a lesson from the last (LAND) exercises
in Romania!  On the other hand ... who knows?  Those Romanian fishermen
could also act pretty mean to foreigners, no?

Panonescu

I believe, Ivan Marinov wrote, " I am not pro choice " and we need no choice" 
Fine, If the writer wants to abdicate the right to have a choice that's his bus
iness. Or is it?
Is the writer a female who actually went through the agonies of an unwanted pre
gnancy ? Or is the writer a male 
who is brave as long as the suffering or the agony is beared by a woman ? Furth
er, The statement," We need
no choice" makes me wonder, just who is " WE" ? Although I do not favour or rec
ommend abortion I do leave the 
choice to the individual. That individual will have to live with the consequenc
es of her decision. The same as 
if someone lives in the Balkans and has not moved a finger to stop the reported
 slaughter of hundreds of 
thousand people in his vicinity but piously crusades on behalf on what he belie
ves a noble cause but with 
little danger in it. After all , demoralized, scared women, facing an uncertain
 future are easy to influence
on mandate from the Creator. 

I do appreciate the quote from Mr. Solzhenytsin but the Western World will not 
collapse as long as we have 
freedom of choice. The choice to elect representatives who may be pro choice or
 pro life or in tune with our 
beliefs, whatever they may be. 

However, the collapse of the West is possible if fanatics of any dogma which do
es not tolerate variance from 
its teachings would gain power. ---  Having said this, abortion should not beco
me a means of birth control
and in some cases it should be discouraged by intelligent helpful persuasion an
d by the offer of helping
the mother emotionally and FINANCIALLY when the unwanted child arrives.--  Mark

Subject: Re: Maria Egorov's Romani Husband
On Tue Jul 23 1996  (Albert Egorov) wrote: 
>... IT IS EASY TO SEE WHY THE ROMANIANS & MOLDOVIANS 
>DO NOT LIKE THE GYPSIES TO BE CALLED ROMANI.
>The Byzantines writers never reefers to the GYPSIES as ROMANI, nobody did.
>The name ROM, ROMY started to appear late at the beginning of the 20th. 
>Century. The name of ROM comes from the Gypsies word DOM(probably a 
>religious term). Now from DOM to ROMANI is a long way,and unacceptable to 
>the Romanians for obvious reasons.

The vast majority of people in all the following countries:
Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria
Andorra
Angola
Antigua & Barbuda
Argentina
Australia
Austria
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belgium
Belize
Benin
Bhutan
Bolivia
Botswana
Brazil
Brunei
Bulgaria
Burkino Faso
Burma 
Burundi
Cambodia
Cameroon
Canada
Cape Verde
Central African Republic
Chad
Chile
China
Colombia
Comoros
Congo
Costa Rica
Cuba
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Djibouti
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
Egypt
El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Fiji
Finland
France
Gabon
Gambia
Germany
Ghana
Greece
Grenada
Guatemala
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Guyana
Haiti
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Ivory Coast
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kenya
Korea (North/South)
Kuwait
Laos
Latvia
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Madagascar
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Mali
Malta
Mauritania
Mauritius
Mexico
Monaco
Mongolia
Morocco
Mozambique
Nepal
Netherlands
New Zealand
Nicaragua
Niger
Nigeria
Norway
Oman
Pakistan
Panama
Papua-New Guinea
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Qatar
Rwanda
Saint Lucia
St Vincent & The Grenadines
San Marino
Sao Tome & Principe
Saudi Arabia
Senegal 
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Slovakia
Solomon Islands
Somalia
South Africa
Spain
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Surinam
Swaziland
Sweden
Switzerland
Syria
Taiwan
Tanzania
Thailand
Togo
Tonga
Trinidad & Tobago
Tunisia
Turkey
Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
United States
Uruguay
Vatican City
Venezuela
Vietnam
Western Samoa
Yemen
Zaire
Zambia
Zimbabwe
couldn't give a tinker's damn about what the Romanians and Moldovians like
or don't like, what they find acceptable or unacceptable. Whether you like
it or not the rest of the world via the United Nations and the EU, refers
to Gypsies as Romani, and Romanians as ROMANIANS. 

>CONSTANTINE FLAVIUS PORPHYROGENITUS (BYZANTINE EMPEROR 913-959)
>From "De administrando imperio".
>"The emperor Diocletian was much enamored of the country of Dalmatia,and 
>he brought folk with their families from ROME and settled them in this 
>same country of Dalmatia,and they were called ROMANI (VLACHS) from their 
>having been removed from ROME, and this title attaches to them until this 
>day..."

That day (913-959) is long past Albert, wake up, face the future, indeed,
face the present. I know that those born and raised in the Siberian tundra
and Moldovan forests, have been out of touch with the rest of the advanced
sectors of the planet for many generations, but that is no excuse for
continuing to live in the past -- in your case, at least a millennium.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,  says...

>BTW, I never understood why American sports papers don't use weighted
>point system in which a gold medal is worth more ponts than the silver
>or bronze, or the silver more than the bronze.  As it is, the medals
>have the same weight, regardless their color, unless there is a tie in
>the total counts of countries.  Maybe this is too heavy a concept for
>the American sports reporters?
>
>Joe Pannon

Actually, the total medal count is but one among several,
though newspapers in general only use that one. If you
check with the olympics Web site, you can choose other
modes of weighing points, including those where gold
medals determine the rankings, etc. I have, by the way,
no problem with total medal counts . . . Each way of
doing this would be problematic . . . this may be the
fairest, after all. Especially if we take into consideration
that being first, second, or third doesn't make that
much difference in overall achievement . . . at times
these differences are but fractions of seconds apart . . . 

Steven C. Scheer

 wrote:

>Although I do not favour or recommend abortion I do leave the
>choice to the individual.

By the same logic, we can say that we don't need any sentences for mass 
murderers, terrorists,
etc., etc. Let them have the choice, let them live free.

>That individual will have to live with the consequences of her
>decision.

Consequence? The consequence is the society's reply. We need working and 
functioning
societies, not dead ones.

>The same as
>if someone lives in the Balkans and has not moved a finger to stop the reporte
d slaughter of
>hundreds of
>thousand people in his vicinity but piously crusades on behalf on what he beli
eves a noble
>cause but with
>little danger in it.

I like your humour. But you should agree with me, that this is demagogy. 
Do you claim that if I
cannot stop ALL the problems of this world, then I must remain silent? 
Why didn't you stop the
Soviet invasion in 1956 and 1968? Why didn't you stop Fidel Castro? Why 
didn't you stop Pol
Pot? You did nothing, so you have no right to speak about any "choice". 
I'm sorry, but this is
stupid demagogy, nothing more.

>I do appreciate the quote from Mr. Solzhenytsin but the Western World will not
 collapse as
>long as we have
>freedom of choice.

You're a big optimist, congratulations! But I think you're wrong. 
Morality is more important
than freedom.

>However, the collapse of the West is possible if fanatics of any dogma which d
oes not tolerate
>variance from
>its teachings would gain power.

People in the 18-19th used to say the same thing on people opposing 
slavery. Try to understand
that humanity and respect for human life is becoming more and more 
important. No one can
stop this process!

>Having said this, abortion should not become a means of birth control
>and in some cases it should be discouraged by intelligent helpful persuasion a
nd by the offer of
>helping
>the mother emotionally and FINANCIALLY when the unwanted child arrives.

This is the task of a moral society.

-- 

Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
PGP Key Fingerprint = 9D 85 B7 63 7D 85 14 C1  4C 36 CB 5E 92 70 FE E3
---

URL: <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/web>;
Version: 0.1
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: web
Posting-Frequency: every ten days
Archive-name: hungarian/web
Last-modified: 1996/07/04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

     Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 The following is the chapter recently removed from the main body of
the hungarian-faq. This is not yet completely re-edited for stand-alone
format, nor completing a collection of all important links has been
attempted. For more comprehensive WWW directories see, for example:
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>;, <http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; or
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>;.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like WWW
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

- ------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a hierarchical
database of Hungarian online content worldwide. Currently it has links
in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://www.hix.com>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://www.hix.com/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://www.hix.com/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hol>;. 
The Hungary-Online archive is available from 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hrep>; 
as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/>;. [The same server also hosts a
"Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ" <http://mineral.umd.edu/faq/>;.]

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.html>;.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.aayh.org/>;.

 A Hungarian church in Chicago has info at
 <http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/>;.

 The Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College (Nyiregyhaza) offers 
some 3000 pages worth of database for Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg county 
(Eastern Hungary) as well as other goodies and general Internet help,
in both Hungarian and English: <http://www.bgytf.hu/>;.

 See also section 2.3 above, which covers
<http://www.siliconvalley.com/>; and refers to other links as well.

- ------------------------------

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 () wrote:

>Since the OMRI news itself contained the questionable phrase in quotes,
>I assumed it was verbatim from Tinca.  It doesn't make sense to me for
>Shafir to do that with his own translation.

Without any doubt, Shafir's quotes are translations from  "Evenimentul
Zilei":

>>Defense Minister Gheorghe Tinca
>>said in an interview with the Hungarian daily Magyar Nemzet that his
>>country fears that the setting up of NATO bases on Hungarian territory
>>might encourage "Hungarian extremist forces," THE DAILY EVENIMENTUL 
>>ZILEI REPORTED  on 24 July.

Unless the Romanian daily quoted Tinca in English, which is highly
improbable, the "incriminated" English belongs to Shafir. Read
carefully the OMRI text!

>Sorry, Liviu, but the only context I ever hear the word is "recuperating
>from illness", regardless of what other possible meaning the word might
>have.  In fact, sounding so similar to the word "recapture", I think
>that's what Tinca really meant to use.

Nevertheless, despite of what one might have or have not heard, you
pointed to the dictionary as to the ultimate referee. According to my
dictionary, "to recover" and "to take back" are words having the same
or almost the same meaning as "to recuperate."

>>The meanings are the same as in Romanian, although #3 is probably the
>>most common one.  

>I think #1 is the most common use, and that's why my Webster mentions it
>ahead of other meanings.

Your Webster is at least as accurate as mine, but I was referring to
the most common Romanian usage of "a recupera."  Anyhow, regardless of
usage frequency, synonymous words are supposed to have  the same or
almost the same meaning. 


Regards,

Liviu Iordache

T.M.Lutas > wrote:

> You go on to explain your troubles but you really don't make any sort of
> statement why the tolerated deserve a suspension of moral judgment on their
> actions. If they simply didn't go out drinking with the rat or inviting him
> to parties and other social occasions and only dealing with him as was
> strictly necessary due to the requirements of work and desire to avoid
> persecution, this shunning would have had real personal consequences and it
> is likely that a certain number of marginal informers would have either never
> started or would have mended their ways. Certainly there would have been a
> greater moral understanding of the battle which might have helped in thwartin
g
> the communist comeback that so many E. European nations have had.

Though I did not make an explicit statement about it, I think implicitly it
was obvious what I thought of the type of behavior I described.  I lost hope
and decided to leave.  However, I am a bit more pragmatic than you seem to
be and don't judge them too harshly for that.  Only when I see those
recurring attempts by many of them to stake out a moral high ground for
their staying at home vis-a-vis those of us who left.

> If you can't make a moral case for the debt that society at large owes these
> people, there isn't any justification that will hold up for continued
> recompense for the damages they have suffered.

My support of their moral case is admittedly tempred by the ability of the
country to satisfy such recompense.

> I'm not surprised at all to hear that there are only minimal efforts made to
> help these unfortunate people who have been persecuted. If people would
> really examine what these people are owed as a debt of honor, or even a
> blood debt, the results would lead to a more just recompense for the pain
> they have endured.

Well, besides the ability of the country to pay, there is another factor,
I think: the subconscious guilt the majority must feel for their past
passive and often supportive role of the regime during the "Gulas Communism"
years. People with such guilt complex are hardly expected to support those
who did not compromise with their rulers.  I think this is also behind their
rather hostile behavior toward the anti-Communist Western emigrees. They
know we were right all along, but hate to admit it.

> Since Romania is likely to be undergoing in '96 what Hungary did in '90 what
> would you advise so we don't blow it like you did?

Pass laws to prosecute those who committed crimes even by the standard of
contemporary laws.  Prevent people who held power positions during the
Communist era to hold such positions again for at least 8-10 years.  This
should include their close family members to avoid a simple generation
change in the same ruling families.  These people can have their own
business, of course, or be employees of others, as long as they are not
deciding over the lives of others.  It's also important to clean house in
media fiefdoms, so former communist propogandists could not spread their
poison any more. Needless to say about the security apparatus and armed
forces. Last not least:  all the agent files of former regime should be open
to the public.

Well, that's about all I can say about the subject that is taking more of my
time than I have for it.  You can have the last word.

Regards,
Joe

There seem to be quite a number of postings bearing the names of two
gentlemen,  
Ivan Marinov and Maximilian Valenski. 

As far as I can see, they  do not support abortion and  seem to advocate
Christian
values, whatever they mean by that. Our violent world, most certainly can
use any
approach which would allow us to live out our lives peacefully. To me that
includes
the choice of religion and beliefs without self styled zealots forcing their
"Truths"
on the vulnerable.  True, a society must have moral values. The question is,
whose
values should we adopt ? Almost every religion has a ready made case for the 
"Only" truth,   -"Their" truth.  - 

Personally, I do have deference for people who are 
spiritual, but instead of damning every one who does not agree with the dogma o
f
their faith, they help others in a practical way, like Mother Theresa and
countless
others.   

>From what I have seen and experienced in life, many people talk about their
faith,
their morals, the doctrine they follow and how others should conduct their life
.

However, I posit, that in a sudden and life threatening crisis, ninety-five
percent of the
people act according to their INSTINCT, tossing aside earlier virtuous
conditioning.
The fact  is that the parochial type of individual, more often than not may
assume that
the laws of nature are constantly suspended in their behalf. Of course, this
is the
ultimate in personal vanity. And when the expected "Miracle" does not
materialize,
they become bitter and consciously or subconsciously want  others to suffer.
Thus
the mission to act as sentinels to the dogmas of misery and intolerance
in the name of MORALS  -Theirs!      

                                                                         
                                                                    Mark

Szaszvari Peter irja:

>Modellezzuk most az egyszerubb vizsgalat kedveert NPA sztorijat.
>1. Valaki artani akar NPA-nak, ezert feljelenti.
>2. NPA munkaltatoja az igazolatlan vadak alapjan elbocsatja NPA-t
>3. NPA nem kuzd jogaiert mert azokat nem latja ervenyesithetoeknek, megha 
>igaza is van.
>Most jon a hiba:

A hiba nem jon, hanem mar pontjaidban is ott volt. Tehat helyesbitek:

1. "Valakik" artani "akarnak" .......
2. Nem az igazolatlan vadak alapjan, hanem egy olyan vad alapjan, ami reven az 
   egesz cegnek mennie kellene.
3. NPA. kuzd a jogaiert csak nem koti a reszleteket mindenki orrara.

>4. NPA vezetesevel mindenki arra koncentral, hogy kik voltak a feljelentok.

Helytelenul teszik, mert NPA. nem ker senkit, hogy koncentraljon.  ha tollem 
fuggetlenul megis tobben koncentralni igyekeznek, hat az az o ugyuk. 

>Deklaracio:
>Feljelenteni csunya dolog. Feljelentessel vitakat elintezni aljassag.

Ebben viszont egyetertunk.

>A feljelentgeto torzult szemelyisegu ember.

Ez is igaz. Hu de kozel kerultunk egymashoz. :-)

>Azonban:
>A feljelentokre koncentralva szemelol tevesztjuk a fo bajt. Az a renszer ahol 
>bizonyitatlan feljelentesek alapjan, az illetonek meg vedekezesre sem adva 
>lehetoseget, valakit megbuntetnek, ROSSZ.

Itt gond van a logikaval. Eloszor az aljas feljelentoket kell tettukert fele-
losegre vonni, utana azokat akik az ilyeneket tamogatnak es utana kell felepi-
teni egy olyan rendszert ami nem tur meg efajta aljas emberroncsokat!

>Ha csupan a feljelentoket okoljuk, elfogadjuk azt az aldatlan allapotot, hogy 
>a rendszer:

Nem szabad csupan a feljelentoket okolni. Ebben igaza van Szaszvarinak. Lasd 
a fenti soraimat.

>1. torvenyszegesre kenyszerit/csabit (nem szabad a computert magancelra 
>hasznalni, de ajanljak a webet, es mindenki hasznalja)

Ez igy igaz. Egyik kezzel cukorkat tartani, masikkal nagyot utni, nagyon 
aljas eljaras. Tehat az elso pontban egyezik velemenyunk.

>2. felelemben tart (mindenki torvenyt szeg de csak neha buntetnek)

Igaz!

>3. igazsagtalan (veletlenszeruen buntet, ki nem mondott valodi indokok 
>alapjan, azaz megint csak felelemben tart)

Nos ez tokeletesen illeszkedik arra amit ANL. csinalt.

>4. hianyossagai folytan eszkozt ad arto szandeku emberek kezebe, hogy 
artsanak >(a feljelentest kritika nelkul elfogadjak), azaz kontraszelektal.

Pontosan.

>Ezek az ismervek, rossz rendszerekre (diktaturak) illenek, es fedik a tortenet
 
>lenyeget. Ezert mondom ujra meg ujra, a feljelento csunya ember, de kizarolag 
>a feljelentokkel foglalkozni veszelyes dolog mert elfedi az igazi bajokat.

Ilyen szemszogbol nezve megiscsak igazat adok Szaszvari Peternek es az alanti
sorait is elfogadom.

>Rossz emberek mindig lesznek es csak jo rendszerek vedhetnek meg toluk.

>Szemelyes pelda:
>Svajcban dolgozom, de statuszom nem engedi meg, hogy felesegem is itt legyen. 
>Itt volt. Feljelentettek (szemelyes okbol). Felesegemet ket evre kitiltottak 
>Svajcbol.
>Tudom ki a feljelento (rendorseg bevallotta), de nem haragszom ra.

Errol az ugyrol tudok magam is. Az ugy erdekessege az volt Peter es cafold
meg ha nincs igazam, hogy veletlenszeruen pont akkor tortent a feljelentes
amikor Te igen kritikusan irtal a Farkas altal felvetett ugyem kapcsan. 
De kerdezem tolled, miert nem munkalkodsz azon, hogy mindenki megismerhesse 
a feljelentgetok lelkivilagat es tarod elenk az ugyed reszleteit es a felje-
lentot miert nem mutatod be, hogy tobben magukra ismerhessenek az aljas el-
jaras torvenyeinek tukreben?

>Haragszom viszont az aldatlan szabalyokra, melyek ilyen felemas, 
>torvenytelensegre csabito helyzetet teremtenek.

>Ez itt a baj, es nem az az idetlen kislany aki egy felrertes folytan 
feltekeny >lett es egybol feljelentette nejemet.

Gondold meg Peter. Az nem csak egy kis idetlen kislany volt, hanem egy 
torzult egyeniseg aki ha a tortenelmi allapotok ugy hoznak meg nagyobb 
aljassagokra is kepes lenne. Az ilyeneket mindehol meg kell ismerni, hogy 
az ember tudjon vedekezni ellenuk.

>Uraim, hasznaljuk az agyunkat!

Hiaba hasznalod. Ha Te becsuletes vagy, az meg nem viszzafogo ero az aljas 
utat valasztokkal szemben.

>Ezennel ezt a temat befejeztem, megyek vitorlazni, az internet meg le van...

Jo vitorlazast: NPA.

"Romeo" > wrote:

>If you know better, Mr.Liviu, why don't you try to describe us this
>history.

The normal way would be for you to (1)open a decent history textbook
or encyclopedia, (2)read about the origin of Hungarian people, and
(3)understand what is explained there. Since obviously  you, for
reasons I don't feel like getting into right now, are unable to
accomplish at least one of the above three simple, yet necessary,
steps (and with sincerity I hope is not the 3rd one), I'll do it for
you.

The ethnic character of a people, what makes that people belonging to
a particular division of mankind,  is defined by race (at a very
general level), by culture (at a lower hierarchical level), and by
language  (at a very precise level). That the Romanians or French are
of Latin extraction is proved by their languages. Similarly, the
Czechs and Bulgarians are of Slavic stock because Czech and Bulgarian
languages are neither Romance nor German but Slavic languages.
Therefore, because Hungarian is not a Turkish language one cannot
consider the Hungarians a Turkish people.

Turkish is the most widely spoken language of the Altaic language
family. The Altaic linguistic  family consists of three main groups
(or subfamilies): Turkic, Mongolic, and Manchu-Tungus. 

By contrast, Hungarian is part of the  Finno-Ugrian group that belongs
to the Uralic (not Altaic!) family of languages. Other Uralic
languages are Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, Ostyak, Vogul, Samoyedic.
Neither Turkish nor Mongolian belongs here.

Now, just to give you some measure of the taxonomic distance between
Hungarian and Turkish, let's stress that Romanian belongs to the
Romance group of the Indo-European linguistic family. Since Romanian,
Hungarian, and Turkish belong to three different linguistic families
(Indo-European, Uralic, and Altaic, respectively), we may roughly
conclude that, from a linguistic (or ethnic)  viewpoint,  the
Hungarians origins are as much far away from the Turks as are the
Romanian ones.

>So, by replying, you brought an argument against a statement that does not exi
st.
>So, by replying, you've said nothing. So your reply is not a reply.

If you insist I can try to evaluate the IQ difference between
's  idiotic Turkish friend and .
Take my word on this one, you would not like the result. 

Regards, 

Liviu Iordache

P.S. I take back one of my previous statements. 9% (not 7%) of the
Hungarian word-roots are of Turkish origin. For comparison, Latin
words amount to 8% of the Hungarian vocabulary.

Pannon Jozsi irja:

>>Persze kivancsi lennek, hogy az O otlete volt a "whisle Blower Hotline" hasz-
>>nalata vagy mase? Majd kiderul.....

>Ennek ismerete olyan valakit feltetelez, aki mar regen itt lakik, s jol
>ismeros az itteni belpolitikaval.  Kb. 3-an kvalifikalnak erre az
>altalam sejtett csoportban.  Azert en a helyedben megprobalkoznek a FOI
>proceduraval is.  Ezt az amerikai Bal nagy sikerrel hasznalta azelott.
>Ideje lenne mar a Jobb oldalnak is elni ezzel a lehetoseggel.

Az FOI. kerveny mar be lett adva par hete. Sajnos az lassan jon vissza!

>Oh, es meg valami mas ...
>Az a "pornoterjesztes" vad olyan bizarrnak tunt a te esetedben, hogy
>sokszor elgondolkoztam mi lehetett a celja a feljelentoidnek ezzel a
>nyilvanvalo abszurdummal.  A dolog lehetseges nyitja akkor otlott fel
>bennem, amikor valaki mastol, akit szinten hozzad hasonlo tamadasok
>ertek a multban, kaptam egy eleg ketsegbeesett hangu privat levelet.
>Ebben az illeto tanacsot kert arra, hogy hogyan razzon le egy "aol"-rol
>iro, ismeretlen illetot, aki keretlenul kuldogetett neki bestialis
>("snuff") porno cikkeket.  Egy ilyen cikket mellekelt is leveleben, s
>mondhatom, hogy ilyen ocsmany dolgot meg nem olvastam eddig sehol.
>Ugy latszik a segelykero hiaba probalkozott ennek leallitasaval az
>aol.com postamesterenel.

Az altalad emlitett ugyrol magam is tudok. Ez a bagazs egyszerre tobb
fronton tamad, hatha bejon valami. A legfobb harcmodoruk a provokacio.
A porno vad kulonben nagyon rovid eletu volt, csakugy, mint az egyetemi
accountokra valo betoresem. De arra is gondoltam, hogy az elobb emlitett
ket vad, csak csomagoloanyag szerepet toltoltte be a nagyagyunak szant 
antiszemita vad eseteben. Nos miutan azt is nehez eladni az amerikai 
alkotmany miatt, igy maradt az egyetlen teknikailag kivitelezhetio 
formatum.

>Ekkor "gyulladt fel a villany" a fejemben!  Mindjart arra kellett
>gondolnom, hogy ez ellen a srac ellen is feljelentes ment, amiben a
>pornoterjesztes vadja biztos szerepel.  Egy audit valoszinuleg
>megtalalna a nyomat annak a porno cikknek az illeto accountjan, s ki
>tudja alkalma lenne-e az illetonek megmagyaraznia, hogy o egy egyszeru
>"kabatlopasi" trukknek az aldozata.  Ezert kell kerdeznem toled is,
>Peter, hogy nem kaptal-e te is valami keretlen porno anyagot egy
>ismeretlen cimtol mielott feljelentettek.

Megvallom nem kaptam semmi ilyesmit. Tudod a feljelentgetok azert dobnak
be kulonbozo vadpontokat, hatha a ceg szimatolas kozben megis talal va-
lamit ami reven az illetot kar erheti. Gondolom emlekszel Csorna Pista 
esetere. Kivancsi lennek az O ugyenek a hatterere. Nos elkepzelem, hogy a
feljelentok abban bizakodtak, hogy feljelentesem reven en is Pistahoz 
hasonloan el fogok tunni a magyar digitalis mediakrol. A terv visszafele 
sult, hiszen most vegre van idom irni. 

NPA.

|| "recuperating Transylvania." -- Michael Shafir
|| 
|| I wonder if this Tinca fellow was an English teacher in his previous
|| life.  

You never know, Jozsi: Tinca... maybe a... Tenkes Kapitany. ;-)

|| But in a way, he is right!  I am, too, for recuperating
|| Transylvania!

Hm... "recuperating"..., sort of OMRI 'traduttore traditore'. :-)

|| Panonescu

szia,
g

In article >,
Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs wrote:
| 
| > The point I was making was that  there are many people hwo
| > are pro life and pro choice at the same time (when the terms
| > are used properly). not that this is your opinion/.
| > BTW I disagree about your statement about what we
| > need... but that again is a different issue.
| 
| Please tell me how is possible to be pro-choice and pro-life at the same 
| time.
| 
*that's* what I was responding to in the last
letter!

Pro life as in supporting people to choose not to have
abortions, while allowing them to make their own choices.

Istvan

Istvan Szucs wrote:
 
> Pro life as in supporting people to choose not to have
> abortions, while allowing them to make their own choices.

Oh, I see. Something like that "don't kill him, but kill him if you 
want".

-- 

Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
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Szucs Istvan irja:

>Hol vagtalak, es milyen tettekrol beszelsz? Semmifele
>szandekom nem volt teged "vagni"  es nem is tudom hogy
>vagtalak volna, mivel meg mail kozelben sem voltam harom
>hete. Igenis szandekomban all es allt segiteni, es nem ertem
>hogy mit mondtam vagy tettem amit kifogasolsz.

Nezd nincs modomban visszanezni hirtelen az SCM. archivumot, de
ugy remlik nem eppen pozitivan nyilatkoztal ugyemben. De ajanlok
valamit. Utanezek es ha en tevedtem, ugy bizhatsz abban, hogy 
bocsanatodat fogom kerni. 

NPA.

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