My wife's family has some encyclopedia articles and other notes
which establish the following lineage:

In 1835, Countess Claudine Rhedey of Kis-Rede married Duke
Alexander of Wurttemberg; she became ennobled as Countess
Hohenstein.  Their second child, Franz, married Princess
Mary Adelaide and became known as Franz or Francis, Prince
of Teck.  Their child, Princess Victoria Mary, married
George V and produced George VI, who in turn was the father
of Queen Elizabeth II of England.

Does anyone know of any works on the Countess Rhedey or her
family genealogically upstream of her?  My wife's paternal
line is also Rhedey of Hungary, and although the chance of
being significantly related to royalty is slight at best, this 
may help us determine where the Rhedey ancestral area was
(i.e. where is Kis-Rede?).  One source refers to the 
"mountain fastnesses of Transylvania from which her family
had sprung," but other bits suggest the Rhedey ancestral
home may have been in southwest Hungary around the Drava
River.

Thanks much for any clues!

Frank

Hi! I run an international penpal club called Earth Friends which 
finds male and females of all ages penpals and e-mailpals from all 
over the world! If you would like to find out more information on 
joining Earth Friends, send me an e-mail and make sure to state 
which country you live in.

write to: 102012,431 (Compuserve users only)
 (internet)

Please only write to my Compuserve address if you are also writing 
from Compuserve.  Thanks!

1: A kutya látja az embert. = The dog sees (the man) = NP+VP+()
2: A kutya az embert látja. = The dog (the man) sees = NP+()+VP
3: Latja a kutya az embert. = Sees the dog (the man) = VP+NP+()
4: Latja az embert a kutya. = Sees (the man) the dog = VP+()+NP
5: Az embert latja a kutya. = (The man) sees the dog = ()+VP+NP
6: Az embert a kutya latja. = (The man) the dog sees = ()+NP+VP

cases 2-6 in English are context bound (SEE James Joyce re: Virag)
cases 1,2,6 are convention ridden, while 3,4,5 are strange because of the 
leading VP as we speak of "the under the orange painted, lavendar Mexican 
tiled linoleum refrigerator lying calico cat"... makes sense to me!

Hockett, Chosmky, Lamb linguists may fill in on the degrees of syntactic 
freedoms enjoyed by an agglutinative synthetic language i.e. magyar  :)

comments?

janos
 
by an agglutinative  

: In case of English we have only one valid solution:

: The dog sees the man.

: Tamás

In article > Janos Szamosfalvi,
 writes:
>Regarding an old question about English:
>
>Old-English:     450 - 1050
>Middle-English: 1050 - 1450
>Modern-English: 1450 on
> 
>There's a period called Early-Modern-English:  1450 - 1700

The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary says:

OE (Old English )                      -1149
LOE (late Old English)      1000-1149
ME (Middle English)          1150-1349 (or in some context, 1469)
LME (Late Midlle English) 1350-1469

then L15,E16,M16,L16.....M20,L20 : classes for
every 30 year interval.

Tamás

In article > CLARY Olivier,
 writes:
>You do not play dice: if you start with "Az embert...", you have a reason
>for it.

I try to be even more explicit.
Do we have to be care of word order in the sense of indo-
europian languages ? I doubt we always have reason when
we pick a different word to start the 'doggy' sentence.

>Same for choosing "...a kutya látja" instead of "...látja a kutya".
>These are things that English cannot do, or not through word order, while
>for instance spoken French works like Hungarian:
>   Le chien, il a vu le gars qui voulait entrer, et...
>   Le gars qui voulait entrer, le chien, il l'a vu, et...
>   Le gars qui voulait entrer, le chien l'a vu, et...

With 'qui' you unambigously emphasize something and
it is coded in the syntax, you can not (???? my
French is still miserable) change the place of the
stress with different intonation. 

It can be done in Hungarian:

1. Az embert latja a kutya.

no stress, just a neutral sentence.

2. Az embert latja a kutya.
      ****** 
primary stress according to the syntax.

3.Az embert latja a kutya.
            *****
no stress at all on 'embert', heavy stress on
'latja'.

Tamás

In article > CLARY Olivier,
 writes:
>"Tehát"? Nem láttam ebben semmit, ami eziránt vinné a gondolatot: talán
>túl rövidre foglaltad össze? Lehet, hogy van valami a "székely = hun"
>legendában, de hogy ez bizonyítaná be... :-(

Azt hittem lesz valaki, aki olvasta a sorozatot, vagy
ismeri a szerző munkáját, és tud kiegészítést fűzni
ahhoz, amit írtam. Nekem nagy része teljesen kínai,
egyrészt mert nem vagyok nyelvész, másrészt tényleg
a kínai jelkészletet hasonlítgatja az ékírásokhoz.
(A sorozat első néhány részének alcíme a  következő:
A "tekneus" (tekeneus) jelcsalád hun, kínai és ótürk
jeleinek jeltörténeti összevetése)
Noha felvet néhány extrémnek tűnő teóriát, azért nem
arról a fajta fickóról van szó, akire célzol. A sorozat
vagy 50 oldal zusammen, rengeteg, plauzibilisnek tűnő
hivatkozással.

Tamás

American Chamber of Commerce
Dozsa Gy. ut 84/A
H-1068 Budapest, Hungary
Tel: 36-1-269-6016
Fax: 36-1-122-8890

Regards, A.Bodnar

While I realize this is off topic, I hope it will be an enjoyable
deviation.  About a month ago.  I started a project which involved
marking all the spots that I have talked to people via the net with red
map pins on a huge 6 by 9 foot wall map.  I started by posting inquiries
on newsgroups that asked anyone who was interested in being included on
my map to just sent me a letter telling where they lived and anything
else interesting they wanted to throw in.  The response was overwhelming.
I have gotten hundreds of responses and I would love to get more.  Anyone
who would like to be included on this map needs only drop me a line at
""  Feel free to chat about whatever you like.  I have
replied personally to all messages and enjoy talking about anything.  Even 
had to go buy a new atlas to find some obscure cities.  Thanks in
advance.

                                                        Chad Johnson
                                                        Beaumont, Tx.
                                                        

--

>>>> info hungary

HUNGARIAN-AMERICAN LIST

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[Last updated Sat Jul  8 11:29:55 1995]
>>>> end
END OF COMMANDS

Hi,

Does anyone know the mailing addres of the American Chamber of Commerce in
Hungary. I would much appreciate all the help I can get.

Thank you,

Steve

In all this discussion of Hungary's NATO participation, 
the hidden subject is not Belgium in 1995, but Budapest 
in 1956.  The facts are that, regardless of US 
Republican Party speeches, they were in control of US 
foreign policy in 1956, when they had a REAL chance to 
make NATO a significant force in Eastern Europe [and not 
just in Budapest, but in Berlin and other national 
capitals as well].  That chance is gone, & the 
reputation of NATO in Eastern Europe is now about as 
awe-inspiring as that of the Swedish Army after Poltava 
[I had an ancestor at Poltava, so no flames, please].

Refresh my memory, but isn't the prospect now to protect 
Hungary & the other NATO applicants with the same armed 
might that cannot keep schoolchildren free of mortar 
shellings in Sarajevo?  What's in it for Hungary?

My college professor of European history was the late 
Heltai Gyo"rgy [d. 1994].  He once mentioned to me that 
he was part of a Hungarian government group that had 
drafted a Danube Federation proposal in 1946.  They 
thought they had Stalin's backing [as a buffer against 
the West], but Kremlin internal politics changed & the 
idea was canceled.

It seems like some economic federation like that 1946 
proposal or straightout membership in the EU would be 
more productive than NATO.  Perhaps this is the real 
meaning of a "post-Industrial" society:  real might is 
economic, not military.  This isn't just naive, wishful 
thinking - IMHO.  And I make that statement in full 
knowledge of the current problems with Transylvania, 
Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and all the other cultural 
crises that plague the region.

An issue often overlooked in the Western media [& some 
scholarship] is the uniquely EASTERN quality of Eastern 
Europe.  The EUROPEAN aspect is over-emphasized, and the 
unique cultures of Hungary, Poland, and others are 
dismissed - all the people are represented as sort of 
Frenchmen or Germans with more elaborate folk costumes.  
This does a disservice to a rich non-Western culture.  
For example, Eastern Europe has the distinct tradition 
of artist-leaders.  From Paderewski to Bartok to Havel, 
their nations have been led by artists more than any 
tradition in Western Europe or the USA.  In the USA, we 
get Ronald Reagan - not the same thing at all.  The 
region that produced a "Transylvanian Enlightenment" 
under John Sigismond more than 100 years before Voltaire 
can create its own identity [especially if it lets the 
dead of the 1930's and 1940's bury the dead of those 
horrible decades - and lets the living concentrate on 
the next century].

Is EU membership really synonymous with NATO membership?  
Why can't Hungary and the other applicants join one 
without the other?  


-- 
Fred R. Reenstjerna
Roseburg, Oregon  USAy

In >  (Alexander Bossy) writes:

>Dan Pop ) wrote:
>: In >  (Kriza Gyorgy) wri
tes:
>
>: >I heard PM Gyula Horn on the yesterday evening news on MTV1 (MTV = Magyar 
>: >TV). He talked about the need of reducing the budget deficit. One measure h
e 
>: >suggested is the introduction of visa obligation with respect to "some of 
>: >our neighbors to the South-East." He explained that this would help 
>: >controlling black labor. 
>
>: If the Hungarian PM thinks that a Hungarian from Transylvania needs a
>: visa to visit his friends/relatives/etc in Hungary, what could you
>: expect from Funar?
>
>: Is Hungary building a new iron curtain?
>
>	Let's be fair.  It isn't just Hungary's fault.  Hungary, Poland 
>and the Czech Republic expect to enter the EU before more eastern states 
>do.  The EU is obsessed with border controls (since the internal borders 
>are so much freer).  If Hungary, Poland, and the Czech Republic expect to 
>be admitted, they had damn well better follow European standards.  

1. According to Gyorgy, the Hungarian PM didn't invoke this argument,
   but a completely different one.

2. I have no objections to the idea that Hungary aligns herself to the
   border control policies of the EU, the moment she joins it, but I
   really cannot see why she should do this _before_ joining EU.
   The economy of a country cannot be changed over night, its border
   control policy can. 

>And, 
>Germany did sign an interesting agreement with Romania about gypsies a 
>few years back...

I fail to see the relevance of this argument in the context of our
discussion.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Fred R. Reenstjerna ) wrote:



: In all this discussion of Hungary's NATO participation, 
: the hidden subject is not Belgium in 1995, but Budapest 
: in 1956.  The facts are that, regardless of US 
: Republican Party speeches, they were in control of US 
: foreign policy in 1956, when they had a REAL chance to 
: make NATO a significant force in Eastern Europe [and not 
: just in Budapest, but in Berlin and other national 
: capitals as well].  That chance is gone, & the 
: reputation of NATO in Eastern Europe is now about as 
: awe-inspiring as that of the Swedish Army after Poltava 
: [I had an ancestor at Poltava, so no flames, please].

: Refresh my memory, but isn't the prospect now to protect 
: Hungary & the other NATO applicants with the same armed 
: might that cannot keep schoolchildren free of mortar 
: shellings in Sarajevo?  What's in it for Hungary?

: My college professor of European history was the late 
: Heltai Gyo"rgy [d. 1994].  He once mentioned to me that 
: he was part of a Hungarian government group that had 
: drafted a Danube Federation proposal in 1946.  They 
: thought they had Stalin's backing [as a buffer against 
: the West], but Kremlin internal politics changed & the 
: idea was canceled.

: It seems like some economic federation like that 1946 
: proposal or straightout membership in the EU would be 
: more productive than NATO.  Perhaps this is the real 
: meaning of a "post-Industrial" society:  real might is 
: economic, not military.  This isn't just naive, wishful 
: thinking - IMHO.  And I make that statement in full 
: knowledge of the current problems with Transylvania, 
: Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and all the other cultural 
: crises that plague the region.

: An issue often overlooked in the Western media [& some 
: scholarship] is the uniquely EASTERN quality of Eastern 
: Europe.  The EUROPEAN aspect is over-emphasized, and the 
: unique cultures of Hungary, Poland, and others are 
: dismissed - all the people are represented as sort of 
: Frenchmen or Germans with more elaborate folk costumes.  
: This does a disservice to a rich non-Western culture.  
: For example, Eastern Europe has the distinct tradition 
: of artist-leaders.  From Paderewski to Bartok to Havel, 
: their nations have been led by artists more than any 
: tradition in Western Europe or the USA.  In the USA, we 
: get Ronald Reagan - not the same thing at all.  The 
: region that produced a "Transylvanian Enlightenment" 
: under John Sigismond more than 100 years before Voltaire 
: can create its own identity [especially if it lets the 
: dead of the 1930's and 1940's bury the dead of those 
: horrible decades - and lets the living concentrate on 
: the next century].

: Is EU membership really synonymous with NATO membership?  
: Why can't Hungary and the other applicants join one 
: without the other?  
 Very well put together and insightful post. Unfortunately  
 we (and I do have eastern european backgroud) love to 
 fight or at least talk about fighting. In is just in our  
 nature ! My father (and his family) were deported from
 Romania (was transylvania back then) So you see many
 of us have some ill feeling in the "old country".
 Back to reality, yes I don't see any link between EU
 membership and NATO. 
 Cheers
 Andras

Jeliko ) wrote:
: Janos Szamosfalvi writes:
: 
: > 	A kutya la'tja az embert.
: > 	Az embert la'tja a kutya.
: > both mean the same thing and both would be translated as: The dog sees 
: > the man.
: Hmmm. Would it not be "The dog sees the man." and "The man is seen by the 
: dog"? Similar minor, but noticable difference.



No.

"The dog sees the man" is in the active voice, whereas "The man is seen by
the dog" is in the passive voice.

In the former sentence, the subject is "the dog" whereas in the latter the
subject is "the man". In both of the Hungarian sentences "a kutya" is the
subject.

Hungarian doesn't seem to make as much use of the passive voice as English.

d.A.